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Author | Topic: Calvinism and Arminianism remix | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Jesus was obviously just another man, his death did not end this wordly suffering that your mythology predicted. Nor will your death or my death. Perhaps the worldly suffering was foreknown to spur many of us--those with a developed conscience, to get angry enough to do something about it. No God is needed. And even if One did exist, what good will it do you to waste time and energy complaining to Him? You may well think of Him (if He did exist) as a bastard, but your anger and protest can be used as the catalyst for you to try and correct the mistakes as you perceive them.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Majority Christianity has always taught that the Creation was severely damaged by the Fall, so why is this discussion going on as if what we have now is God's original Creation? Shouldn't you address what is actually Christian doctrine? Jesus had to come because of the Fall, His death redeems not only those who believe in Him but the whole Creation itself, which has suffered as a result all this time. That's standard Christian doctrine. The lion WILL lie down with the lamb in the redeemed Creation. It will be restored to its original beauty and peace at that time. That is standard Christian doctrine.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9487 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
NCE writes: Gosh, it's almost like we're people. Yup, people making stuff up.
Without competition there is no growth. Complete stasis sounds worse to me. You're just lacking in imagination - you can only think of this model. I ask again, is this the best a god can do? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9487 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Jar writes: It can not be evil by the same method used to call it evil; by human judgement but that does require one to think beyond simple binary choices. I can't extract any meaning from this sentence. It's probably me; care to try again?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9487 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Faith writes: Majority Christianity has always taught that the Creation was severely damaged by the Fall, so why is this discussion going on as if what we have now is God's original Creation? Shouldn't you address what is actually Christian doctrine? Jesus had to come because of the Fall, His death redeems not only those who believe in Him but the whole Creation itself, which has suffered as a result all this time. That's standard Christian doctrine. The lion WILL lie down with the lamb in the redeemed Creation. It will be restored to its original beauty and peace at that time. That is standard Christian doctrine. Oh Faith, that's so batshit crazy that virtually no modern Christian believes that nonsense any more. But this is the point - you all make such random stuff up that it's impossible to discuss it except one by one. You'd think that would be enough to tell you it's all made up, but apparently not, us humans can and do believe anything and everything.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9487 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Phat writes: Nor will your death or my death. Perhaps the worldly suffering was foreknown to spur many of us--those with a developed conscience, to get angry enough to do something about it. What, pray, can we do about the death, pain and disease of the trillions of organism that suffered before god got around to evolving H. Sapens. And what can we do now? That's bonkers....
No God is needed. And even if One did exist, what good will it do you to waste time and energy complaining to Him? You may well think of Him (if He did exist) as a bastard, but your anger and protest can be used as the catalyst for you to try and correct the mistakes as you perceive them. 'You cannot be serious'Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Faith writes: Majority Christianity has always taught that the Creation was severely damaged by the Fall, so why is this discussion going on as if what we have now is God's original Creation? Shouldn't you address what is actually Christian doctrine? Jesus had to come because of the Fall, His death redeems not only those who believe in Him but the whole Creation itself, which has suffered as a result all this time. That's standard Christian doctrine. The lion WILL lie down with the lamb in the redeemed Creation. It will be restored to its original beauty and peace at that time. That is standard Christian doctrine. Oh Faith, that's so batshit crazy that virtually no modern Christian believes that nonsense any more. As I said, it's the majority view and always has been. Where are you getting your information? Here's one scripture passage that says what I'm saying:
Romans 8:18 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. But this is the point - you all make such random stuff up that it's impossible to discuss it except one by one. I agree that at EvC there is such a cacophony of different views presented as "Christian" the poor unbeliever has little chance of sorting it all out. I despair of getting anything true across when I'm up against so many "Christians" who don't know what they are talking about or have accepted some compromised view. I have come by my views from years and years reading books and books and listening to sermon after sermon by a whole range of Christian teachrs, but predominantly mainstream Protestant teachers and when I say my views are the majority view I know that's true. I've done a fair amount of quoting scripture and relevant writings but still I understand an unbeliever has no particular reason to believe what I say over others. At EvC we get all the oddball points of view. And unbelievers tend to like the naturalistic ones best so making a case for the true supernatural historical panorama presented in the Bible isn't easy.
You'd think that would be enough to tell you it's all made up, but apparently not, us humans can and do believe anything and everything. I base my views on the Bible and the best exegetes of the Bible, I don't make any of it up. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9487 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Faith writes: As I said, it's the majority view and always has been. Where are you getting your information? What proportion of Christians do you imagine believe in the literal truth of the creation story? Even when I was being taught it as a child, we were told it was a story not a literal truth. Even in the US - which is a exceptionally primitive about religion compared to the rest of modern democracies - only 16% now think the bible is literally true
quote: Creationism poll: How many Americans believe the Bible is literal, inerrant, or symbolic. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What proportion of Christians do you imagine believe in the literal truth of the creation story? Even when I was being taught it as a child, we wer told it was a story not a literal truth. "Liberal" churches would teach that. What was your denomination? I don't know how many liberal versus Bible-inerrancy churches or Christians there are these days so it's hard to guess, but the Bible believing churches all teach a literal view of the Creation. In my town there are about twenty Christian churches, I've visited maybe two thirds of them over the years, picking the ones I expected to be conservative. I'd say those two thirds teach a literal Creation. It's a guess since I wasn't there for that teaching. ABE: It's possible that members of those churches have differing views, however, because of confusion between what they get from school or general knowledge and what the churches actually teach. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
NCE writes: Gosh, it's almost like we're people. Yup, people making stuff up. Yeah, that is how people come to conclusions. Often they differ. \_(ツ)_/
You're just lacking in imagination - you can only think of this model. Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you:
quote: quote: I think stasis is worse than competition.
I ask again, is this the best a god can do? I don't know. Edited by New Cat's Eye, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9487 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
NCE writes: Yeah, that is how people come to conclusions. Often they differ. Making stuff up is not the same as forming different conclusions. You're all supposed to be the same religion...
I think stasis is worse than competition. And I think that's both a false choice and an unfounded assumption.
I ask again, is this the best a god can do? I don't know. You're omnigod had only one choice? I think you yourself could have designed as less destructive enviroment, let alone your god. But in any case, if this is the best he could do, but did it anyway, he's culpable.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Making stuff up is not the same as forming different conclusions. Duh. But conclusions are made up.
You're all supposed to be the same religion... We're also people. People aren't droids and they have these things called opinions. They also think about stuff. Religion isn't something that is done to you, it is something that you paricipate in. It's no wonder peoples' opinions on the matter differ. Especially given we're talking about something that lacks empirical evidence.
And I think that's both a false choice and an unfounded assumption. How does a thing grow without taking from something else?
You're omnigod had only one choice? I doubt it. For what it's worth: I don't have much use for the omni-stuff.
I think you yourself could have designed as less destructive enviroment, let alone your god. But in any case, if this is the best he could do, but did it anyway, he's culpable. You are welcome to that opinion.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes: How does a thing grow without taking from something else? 1 - Create a universe where matter can be created and/or destroyed. 2 - "Taking from something else" isn't even really the issue. The issue is more "taking from something else that is intelligently alive."Therefore: Create a universe where all things grow from the power of the sun, not by eating other living things. Or, perhaps, by eating creatures without brains (like plants) instead of eating other intelligence that is alive. There are an infinite number of ways to change (that is - not be stagnant) without requiring what we call "evil." You can eliminate evil and make the world better.-but this gets into the issue of where evil/not-evil actually exists along the gradient Or you can simply reduce some of the excessive, unnecessary evil that is on the extreme end of the scale while keeping a lot of "not so incredibly terrible" evil and make the world better. Any way you look at it... if one is all-powerful, it should be rather easy to change a few things here or there to make the universe better than it is. If God is not all-powerful... then that's exactly the reason why the world is the way it is... it is this way because not even God can make it differently. Such an explanation is very acceptable. The issue only arises if someone is claiming that God is, actually, all-powerful.
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: You can eliminate evil and make the world better.-but this gets into the issue of where evil/not-evil actually exists along the gradient Or you can simply reduce some of the excessive, unnecessary evil that is on the extreme end of the scale while keeping a lot of "not so incredibly terrible" evil and make the world better. Any way you look at it... if one is all-powerful, it should be rather easy to change a few things here or there to make the universe better than it is. A few thoughts.
After all it seems to me to be a bit of hubris that humans with limited perception and information can arrogantly judge a Creator. But then again...as jar may suggest...we are charged to do just that. In this way, God helps us grow through judging and opposing Him.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18248 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Think about it this way. Muscles grow by being challenged over and above their limits. Tissue breaks down and is rebuilt at a stronger level. So what if God foreknew that the whole messy affair had to be brutal and ugly in order for the human character to have a chance at developing empathy, survival, and awareness of how to fight and grow? You're omnigod had only one choice? I think you yourself could have designed as less destructive environment, let alone your god. But in any case, if this is the best he could do, but did it anyway, he's culpable. IF God had simply designed the environment as comfortable to us, we would simply be a bunch of couch potatoes with no character. You see death as tragic, which is a human characteristic. God may see death as simply leftover clay smashed back into the mound next to the wheel. And again as I said earlier...we may judge Him as being incompetent, petty, evil, or uncaring. We may even dismiss Him altogether. In the meantime, however, our inner character is evolving so as to guide our own destiny without Him. And if He exists this may have been His plan from the beginning anyway.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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