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Author Topic:   New Geocentrist Blunder
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 53 (749073)
02-01-2015 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by AnswersInGenitals
02-01-2015 8:42 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
Actually, Aristotle was (one of) the first to put this argument forward.
Thank you. It was really Aristotle that inspired the Roman Church and was the cause of the persecution of Galileo, not the Bible, although I'm sure they tried to put it all together as if the Bible said the same thing, which it doesn't. The RCC followed Aristotle far more than the Bible, and in fact continues in some cases to teach Aristotle to new priests, according to Irish ex-priest Richard Bennett who says that's what he was taught, and he had to learn the Bible on his own.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 53 (749152)
02-02-2015 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by herebedragons
02-02-2015 1:43 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
I don't think there is Biblical evidence for either a geocentric or heliocentric universe. The picture you post basically gives the natural understanding of how things look from earth but doesn't provide any case for a geocentric universe as such. What Galileo said doesn't contradict the way things look from earth anyway, it just explains the observable movements more exactly.

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 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-02-2015 3:01 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 36 of 53 (749171)
02-02-2015 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by herebedragons
02-02-2015 2:15 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
Yes the image is geocentric but it doesn't MAKE A CASE for geocentrism was my point. The Bible describes the physical universe from the point of view of earth, I don't see that as a case for geocentrism as a scientific concept.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 53 (749173)
02-02-2015 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr Adequate
02-02-2015 3:01 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
Not getting your point I'm afraid. From the point of view of Earth it's the things in the sky that are moving, that's all the "geocentrism" I think is implied in the Biblical descriptions. There were certainly people who studied the heavens in Biblical times and had very detailed understanding of the movements of the planets, but they never came up with heliocentrism. They were astrologers rather than astronomers who were quite aware of the retrograde movement of the planets because their interpretations took all that into account, without understanding it from the perspective of physics.
So what am I missing?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 39 of 53 (749178)
02-02-2015 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dr Adequate
02-02-2015 3:28 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
I really have no idea what you are trying to say. Who is trying to make anything "look" Copernican? The ancient astrologers charted what they could chart, what's this business about changing the numbers and why would they do that?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 40 of 53 (749185)
02-02-2015 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dr Adequate
02-02-2015 3:28 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
I think my confusion comes down to not knowing why you keep referring to the "Ptolemaic" system. I suppose you are talking about the RC Church's problem with Galileo but you've completely lost me. I'm trying to say that I don't think there is any Biblical position on geocentrism that could have been used against Galileo because it's only a descriptive system of how things look from Earth, and shouldn't become an obstacle to changing to a heliocentric perspective. Making the Biblical decriptions into a scientific claim is the problem and I suppose that's what the RC Church did in melding it with Aristotle's system.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 44 of 53 (749204)
02-02-2015 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by herebedragons
02-02-2015 10:26 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
Yes I know more or less what the Ptolemaic system is, I just don't see how it fits into a discussion of the Bible's geocentric views which aren't a scientific system, just a description of what is observed of the sky from Earth. The Biblical descriptions pre-existed Ptolemy by millennia.
An image isn't a scientific system.
I have no problem with extrabibilical information that makes sense of things WITHOUT CONTRADICTING THE BIBLE, since the Bible doesn't try to explain everything. I don't see that the heliocentric system contradicts the Bible, it merely allows a new perspective on the same information that's expressed in the geocentric view. Evolution on the other hand directly contradicts the Bible.
Yes the image is geocentric, and it's "scientific" to the extent that it gives an account of what is actually seen, but it's not scientific in the sense of trying to explain what is seen, how the observed movements occur and so on. That remained for the heliocentric explanation.
I don't remember much about the discussion of the windows of heaven unfortunately but I would not have said anything like what I'm saying here because I believe the "windows" describes something real that existed before the Flood and no longer exists, though the term "windows" I regard as a poetic expression of the experience of the deluge from the sky as if from openings.
The image you posted, on the other hand, reflects an interpretation of the heavens as even we see them now from Earth.
I'm not up to looking at the links, is there anything there I really need to see?
I suspect that what is called geocentrism is mostly anthropocentrism anyway. The Bible IS very clear that humanity is God's special Creation, and as the geocentrists in the video at the beginning of the thread point out. this idea is supported by the barrenness of life on other planets. That's about the extent of my willingness to entertain geocentrism.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 50 by herebedragons, posted 02-03-2015 9:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 53 (749273)
02-03-2015 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dr Adequate
02-03-2015 2:36 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
The Catholic Church, being evil, wanted to interpret the Bible too literally? Maybe they did.
Not what I'm saying. I'm saying they imposed the alien doctrines of Aristotle on the Bible.
You want to be an evolutionist now?
Um. Non sequitur.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 53 (749366)
02-03-2015 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by herebedragons
02-03-2015 9:04 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
Ah well, a site can be good on some things and totally fail at others.
I can't believe anyone would try to make a scientific system out of the perfectly standard descriptive statement that the sun rises, which of course it does from the point of view of Earth. Such stuff just makes me SO tired I think I'm going to nod off just sitting here.
ABE: Oh and even Luther. Sighl.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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