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Author Topic:   New Geocentrist Blunder
AZPaul3
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Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 16 of 53 (746404)
01-06-2015 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
01-06-2015 12:56 PM


Re: bee fast
I'm guessing they don't look quite so smart in zero gravity.

Neither do we.

But we get used to it in a few hours and so do bees.

See NASA Challenger STS-41C, April 1984


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NoNukes
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Posts: 9912
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 17 of 53 (746424)
01-06-2015 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tangle
01-04-2015 4:44 AM


I assume satellites achieve geostationary orbit by using gravity effects from earth sun and moon and maybe a kick now and then from its own power?

Gravity effects from the earth only to a first order approximation. Satelites are essentially outside of the earth's atmosphere and close enough to the earth so that earth so that earth's gravity is dominant. A geostationary orbit is just an orbit in the plane of the equator with a period of 1 day. A circular orbit of 22,200 miles will work.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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Tangle
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Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
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Message 18 of 53 (746428)
01-06-2015 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by NoNukes
01-06-2015 5:01 PM


Sure but a satellite has to get to that location - fair enough - then get to the speed required to orbit in order to be geostationary, then maintain it over time. My question is how does it get up to that speed? Perhaps the delivery vehicle delivers that also, then vacuum does the rest plus onboard propulsion does the tweaking?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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NoNukes
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Posts: 9912
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 19 of 53 (746455)
01-07-2015 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tangle
01-06-2015 5:44 PM


My question is how does it get up to that speed? Perhaps the delivery vehicle delivers that also, then vacuum does the rest plus onboard propulsion does the tweaking?

I think you've answered your own question here.

Yes the delivery vehicle gives it to the proper height and the required speed. Inertia then keeps the vehicle in the proper orbit with some tweaking required cause of the near vacuum. The orbit needs tweaking primarily because of gravity perturbations from moon and sun, maybe also some effect from the solar wind and the earth not being a perfect sphere. I think only a few tweaks per year are needed to keep satellites in a proper orbit.

To first order though, the moon's gravitational perturbations are cyclic and cancel out over monthly cycles. I just wanted to make it clear that there wasn't any special earth/moon/sun gravity thing that helped out. You can calculate the orbital distance and the required speed for a circular orbit from the mass of the earth alone.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 20 of 53 (746456)
01-07-2015 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by NoNukes
01-07-2015 12:05 AM


I've often thought it would be great fun to watch a geocentrist try to explain geostationary satellites. Apparently there's a certain height above the Earth were things will just sit still if you put them there, OK, fair enough. But then you have to think about the rocket that gets it there --- it attains all that lateral velocity so that ... when you release the satellite, it stays in one place?
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NoNukes
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Posts: 9912
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 21 of 53 (746457)
01-07-2015 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Dr Adequate
01-07-2015 12:26 AM


I've often thought it would be great fun to watch a geocentrist try to explain geostationary satellites.

Absolutely.

I have to admit that today is the first time I'd ever given geocentrists much thought. My impression is that to be a geocentrist, you've already bought into a bunch of really silly physics that is way more fun to pick at than is your belief that the earth is stationary.

I'm sure a geocentrist could manage the task you describe here, and I'm also sure I'd be rolling on the floor laughing at the video.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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RAZD
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Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 22 of 53 (746475)
01-07-2015 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by NoNukes
01-07-2015 1:18 AM


... My impression is that to be a geocentrist, you've already bought into a bunch of really silly physics that is way more fun to pick at than is your belief that the earth is stationary. ...

We had one here last year ... Smooth Operator (see Relativity is wrong...)

I also found an old thread Geocentrism

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 261 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 23 of 53 (746544)
01-07-2015 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by William Rea
01-04-2015 3:52 AM


Re: More on Geocentrism
William Rea writes:

This YouTube contributor has made a series on Geocentrism...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyRJZbNmC7U

this series is extremely informative on the topics of how we know certain things from astronomy. i highly recommend watching all of it.


אָרַח

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1770
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 24 of 53 (746549)
01-08-2015 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
01-03-2015 4:46 PM


Thanks for this one. I remember that someone posted something similar to this on Geosentric "Science" some time ago. It was the first time I ever heard of it and Googling it gave me a lot of pleasure. I really laughed. maybe out of embarrassment that some people can be that stupid? Even guys with PhD's in Cosmology were involved. The "Leader" had a PhD in Cosmology from some American University

I Googled it again. Laughed just as much. Those Amcans can be crazy!

But, I remember that one of the recent Presidents of the Flat Earth Society was a national of my country. Some of us are just as crazy as some of you guys are. Sigh.


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RAZD
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Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 25 of 53 (746553)
01-08-2015 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Pressie
01-08-2015 5:13 AM


New Movie ... "The Principle" ... and the Geocentric Worldview
https://www.au.org/...ovie-to-get-limited-theatrical-release

quote:
Self-Centered: Geocentrist Movie To Get Limited Theatrical Release

Last April, I wrote about a bunch of cranks who believe that the Earth is the center of the universe. These so-called geocentrists are extreme Roman Catholics who believe that Copernicus and Galileo were wrong to promote the heliocentric model of the universe.

Somehow these zealots scraped up a pot of money and produced a fancy, CGI-laden documentary called The Principle, which in the spring of 2014 they claimed would appear in theaters soon.
The film didnt appear, but the matter attracted some attention because The Principle is narrated by Kate Mulgrew, an actress who played Capt. Kathryn Janeway on Star Trek: Voyager and later appeared as Galina Reznikov on the popular Netflix series Orange is the New Black. The film also features interviews with actual scientists like Lawrence Krauss, Michio Kaku and others.

Mulgrew felt compelled to issue a statement affirming her belief in the heliocentric universe, and Krauss and some of the other scientists said they had no idea the documentary was about geocentrism when they were asked to take part.

I figured that was the end of it, but late last night I received a press release via email with big news: The Principle will play in selected theaters Jan. 23!


So these people quote-mined the scientists (see trailer via link) to provide pseudo-evidence for their beliefs ... just as we see creationists quote-mining scientists to pervert what they say into pseudo-evidence for their beliefs ...

Curiously I wonder what the creationists will say ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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NoNukes
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Posts: 9912
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 26 of 53 (748707)
01-28-2015 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
01-08-2015 8:18 AM


Re: New Movie ... "The Principle" ... and the Geocentric Worldview
Has anyone seen this? I cannot find it anywhere. Was it shown in any US theaters?

Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 27 of 53 (748710)
01-28-2015 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes
01-28-2015 12:53 PM


Re: New Movie ... "The Principle" ... and the Geocentric Worldview
Three theatres two in Southern Cali and one in Spokane.
http://www.theprinciplemovie.com/see-movie/theaters/

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


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Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 247
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 28 of 53 (748816)
01-29-2015 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Theodoric
01-28-2015 1:14 PM


Re: New Movie ... "The Principle" ... and the Geocentric Worldview
Spokane? Interesting choice. Maybe because it's close to the really loony part of Idaho.

The Sensuous Curmudgeon had an interesting bit on the movie.

KP


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AnswersInGenitals
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Posts: 488
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 29 of 53 (749071)
02-01-2015 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
01-03-2015 4:46 PM


Geocentrists I have known.
Hi everybody. Immmm Baaaack!

Actually, Aristotle was (one of) the first to put this argument forward. The Greeks of his time had determined that the earth is a sphere and were even able to cleverly measure its diameter to within 10 percent. Ari thus knew that if the earth were rotating at a rate to cause the apparent motion of the stars that the earths velocity at Athens latitude would be about 900 miles per hour (for Faith, that would be about 650 cubits per second). He then argued that if you dropped a rock from the top of the Parthenon, in the approximately two seconds it took to hit the ground Athens would have moved to the east about half a mile and the rock would appear to land about half a mile to the west. Of course, when Aristotle performed this experiment, the rock fell straight down to the base of the Parthenon. Unfortunately, Aristotles fellow philosopher, Newtonicles happened to be standing at the base at the time. Newtonicles could have used this observation to derive the universal law of gravitation if he had not been left in a persistent vegetative state by the incident.

Interestingly, if you want to test for the rotation of the earth about a north-south axis, you dont fly east or west. You fly north or south! If the earth is rotating, you will have to veer slightly to the east or west, respectively to stay on course due to the Coriolis effect. I wont try to explain this effect since googling on it will get several clear explanations with nice graphics and also explain why this isnt the reason water forms whirlpools when draining out of tubs and sinks. This effect, due entirely to the earths rotation, is also the cause of hurricanes and cyclones and explains why those weather structures rotate CCW in the northern hemisphere and CW in the southern hemisphere. (In case you think I have these backwards, note that I didnt specify whether you were on your back looking up or floating in the ionosphere looking down.) So, the existence of hurricanes/cyclones proves the rotation of the earth!

It would also be nice to keep the terminology straight. The earth does not rotate or revolve around the sun. The earth rotates/revolves about its axis. It orbits around the sun. Even in a geocentric model of the universe, the earth could rotate about its axis resulting in the apparent motion of the stars.

At any rate, any question about the earths rotation was put to rest in 1851 with the demonstration of the Foucault pendulum (q. g.:quid googelay), which effectively acts like a gyroscope that remains stationary while the earth rotates beneath it. (When His Holiness Pope Pius IX saw this demonstration he exclaimed: Well, doesnt this just fuck all!, which was mistranslated into the French name the pendulum apparatus now bears.)

One thing that always amazes me is how long it took humankind to arrive at the concept of momentum and its conservation. We were using momentum to throw all kinds of crap, including crap, at each other for millennia before Galileo started sliding stuff down ramps and inclines and making the detailed measurements that led to the understanding of momentum and its importance - and also quite literally starting the slipery slope to the demise of religion. I think this prolonged awkward stumbling towards reality tells more about our struggle with epistemology than all the philosophers in all the gin joints in all the towns in the world.


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Faith
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Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 30 of 53 (749073)
02-01-2015 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by AnswersInGenitals
02-01-2015 8:42 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
Actually, Aristotle was (one of) the first to put this argument forward.

Thank you. It was really Aristotle that inspired the Roman Church and was the cause of the persecution of Galileo, not the Bible, although I'm sure they tried to put it all together as if the Bible said the same thing, which it doesn't. The RCC followed Aristotle far more than the Bible, and in fact continues in some cases to teach Aristotle to new priests, according to Irish ex-priest Richard Bennett who says that's what he was taught, and he had to learn the Bible on his own.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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