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Author Topic:   New Geocentrist Blunder
Faith
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Posts: 23987
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 46 of 53 (749273)
02-03-2015 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dr Adequate
02-03-2015 2:36 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
The Catholic Church, being evil, wanted to interpret the Bible too literally? Maybe they did.

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying they imposed the alien doctrines of Aristotle on the Bible.

You want to be an evolutionist now?

Um. Non sequitur.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-03-2015 2:36 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-03-2015 4:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15482
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 47 of 53 (749313)
02-03-2015 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
02-03-2015 2:42 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
Um. Non sequitur.

Well, you should read the writings of the geocentrists we're talking about. None of them refer to Aristotle, and a huge majority of them are Protestants rather than Catholics, and they keep thumping the Bible and saying that they're the only true Biblical literalists and that you're compromising with Satan. Welcome to my side.


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JonF
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Posts: 3485
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 48 of 53 (749320)
02-03-2015 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Dr Adequate
02-03-2015 4:32 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
Everything I've seen traces back to Sungenis, who seems to think he's a Catholic. Where are the Protestant geolunatics?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-03-2015 4:32 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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herebedragons
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Posts: 1251
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 49 of 53 (749351)
02-03-2015 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by JonF
02-03-2015 5:04 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
How about these Protestant giants?

quote:
People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This man wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.--Martin Luther, Table Talk

quote:
"Scripture simply says that the moon, the sun, and the stars were placed in the firmament of the heaven, below and above which heaven are the waters . . . . We Christians must be different . . . in the way we think about the causes of things. And if some are beyond our comprehension like those before us concerning the waters above the heavens, we must believe them rather than wickedly deny them or presumptuously interpret them in conformity with our understanding."--Martin Luther, Luther's Works. Vol. 1. Lectures on Genesis, ed. Janoslaw Pelikan, Concordia Pub. House, St. Louis, Missouri, 1958, pp. 30, 42, 43.

quote:
Those who assert that 'the earth moves and turns'...[are] motivated by 'a spirit of bitterness, contradiction, and faultfinding;' possessed by the devil, they aimed 'to pervert the order of nature.'--John Calvin, sermon no. 8 on 1st Corinthians, 677, cited in John Calvin: A Sixteenth Century Portrait by William J. Bouwsma (Oxford Univ. Press, 1988), A. 72

quote:
The heavens revolve daily, and, immense as is their fabric, and inconceivable the rapidity of their revolutions, we experience no concussion -- no disturbance in the harmony of their motion. The sun, though varying its course every diurnal revolution, returns annually to the same point. The planets, in all their wandering, maintain their respective positions. How could the earth hang suspended in the air were it not upheld by God's hand? (Job 26:7) By what means could it [the earth] maintain itself unmoved, while the heavens above are in constant rapid motion, did not its Divine Maker fix and establish it? Accordingly the particle, ape, denoting emphasis, is introduced -- YEA, he hath established it--John Calvin, Commentary on the Book of Psalms, Psalm 93, verse 1, trans., James Anderson (Eerdman's, 1949), Vol. 4, p. 7

John Calvin couldn't possibly be wrong about this could he?

How about Gerardus Bouw, a Baptist.

quote:
"I would not be a geocentrist if it were not for the Scriptures... The only way we can know for certain whether or not geocentricity is true would be to leave the universe, take a look around outside the universe, and then come back in to tell us what is really happening in that larger scope. Since God is infinitely greater than the universe, and so extends beyond the universe, what God says must present the ultimate case . . . . God, in His Word, consistently teaches geocentricity."

Source: Here

Actually a pretty good blog. Has some of the same ideas that I tried to get across, but uses more words.

quote:
For instance, the creationist organization, Answers in Genesis, dismisses geocentrism with several arguments including the observation that the question of the earths physical position is less important than the spiritual reality of God's love for his people. ... Bouw points out that Answers in Genesis is not being consistent, You cant say that one part of the Bible is more credible than another part simply because you feel uncomfortable with what it says.

quote:
How can Young-Earth creationists claim the authority of "God's plain speech" for how THEY interpret what God uses His powers for, but geocentrists must abandon theirs?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


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herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1251
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 50 of 53 (749354)
02-03-2015 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
02-02-2015 10:52 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
I just don't see how it fits into a discussion of the Bible's geocentric views

Dr A is using the two ideas interchangeably. Technically, the Biblical position is not Ptolemaic, but its still the basic idea that the earth is stationary and the rest of the universe is what is moving.

which aren't a scientific system, just a description of what is observed of the sky from Earth.

Well, that's your opinion, sure. But you haven't defended it with any Biblical support. All you have is fallible human science and personal opinion.

The image you posted, on the other hand, reflects an interpretation of the heavens as even we see them now from Earth.

Not really. It relies on a lot of assumptions of things we never observe. Like - pillars, water under the earth, Sheol, etc.

I'm not up to looking at the links, is there anything there I really need to see?

The video is actually kind of interesting, if you can get past the guys ultra-boring voice.

The Jesus-Is-Lord link (a site that you previously gave very high marks to) outlines the scientific and Biblical case for geocentricism. Some excerpts:

quote:
***Dear Reader, do you believe EVERYTHING the Bible says?

quote:
This one is a showstopper. It comes from Malachi 4 the last chapter of the Old Testament. It would be about 400 years before God spoke to Israel through John the Baptist. Malachi 4:2

"But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness ARISE with healing in his wings..."

Look at this again. Notice how "Sun" has a capital "S". This obviously refers to the Lord Jesus Christ. HE DID ARISE with healing in his wings. Notice how it does not say "Son", it says, "Sun". If the "sun" DOES NOT rise, does this mean that THE SON did not rise? HE DID RISE AND SO DOES SUN. IT IS NO ILLUSION. IT IS EXACTLY ACCORDING TO WHAT YOUR OWN EYEBALLS SEE EVERYDAY YOU LOOK OUTSIDE.


quote:
There is a lot of interesting information concerned with the false science associated with the heliocentric model... Just like with evolution, there are many things that cannot be explained with the heliocentric model.

quote:
My friends, I know this is a radical concept but don't believe everything science tells you. They make a liar out of God! With the Copernican revolution** all of a sudden not only did the Bible lose its authority in science but in morals and other areas as well. It was, and is, looked upon as unreliable.

** this sentence would work equally as well if you substitute Darwinian for Copernican.

Good stuff, good stuff. How can you NOT be a geocentrist??

That's about the extent of my willingness to entertain geocentrism.

So you don't believe EVERYTHING the Bible says. Hmmm.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 02-02-2015 10:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 10:52 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 23987
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 51 of 53 (749366)
02-03-2015 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by herebedragons
02-03-2015 9:04 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
Ah well, a site can be good on some things and totally fail at others.

I can't believe anyone would try to make a scientific system out of the perfectly standard descriptive statement that the sun rises, which of course it does from the point of view of Earth. Such stuff just makes me SO tired I think I'm going to nod off just sitting here.

ABE: Oh and even Luther. Sighl.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by herebedragons, posted 02-03-2015 9:04 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 52 of 53 (750319)
02-13-2015 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by AnswersInGenitals
02-01-2015 8:42 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
t would also be nice to keep the terminology straight. The earth does not rotate or revolve around the sun. The earth rotates/revolves about its axis. It orbits around the sun.

Minor nit pick here.

Rotate and revolve are not synonyms. Revolve is used by astronomers to mean orbit around. To revolve around the sun is to orbit the sun.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 02-01-2015 8:42 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 53 of 53 (750322)
02-13-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by herebedragons
02-03-2015 8:30 PM


Re: Geocentrists I have known.
herebedragons writes:

John Calvin couldn't possibly be wrong about this could he?


We have to remember that Calvin wasn't saying what he thought he was saying. He was saying what Faith thinks he was saying.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by herebedragons, posted 02-03-2015 8:30 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
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