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Author
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Topic: The Drop in Oil: How Big a Problem?
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Jon
Inactive Member
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Message 31 of 47 (746543)
01-07-2015 9:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 27 by Taq
01-07-2015 5:00 PM
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Re: low energy cost lost leader to harm alternative energy?
If you go back and look at my post in its entirety, you'll see I was talking about the competitiveness of alternative energy vehicles, not simply their possibility. And, as others have pointed out, electric cars have nothing on ICEs in terms of performance.
Love your enemies!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by Taq, posted 01-07-2015 5:00 PM | | Taq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by Taq, posted 01-08-2015 12:27 PM | | Jon has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 32 of 47 (746546)
01-08-2015 2:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 29 by Theodoric
01-07-2015 6:22 PM
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Re: low energy cost lost leader to harm alternative energy?
Theo writes: Perfectly fine for cities and suburbs.
So that you need two cars? Nah, good public transport is the best solution for getting around in cities.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by Theodoric, posted 01-07-2015 6:22 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 33 of 47 (746550)
01-08-2015 6:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
01-08-2015 2:55 AM
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Suburbs: Gas Vehicle versus Taxi versus Electric Vehicle
I live in the suburbs and drive about a hundred miles a week, call it 5000 miles/year. There's nothing within walking distance of the house except other houses. The nearest grocery store, a small one, is about 3.5 miles. At $.60/mile for fuel, maintenance, insurance and registration (not car purchase), 5000 miles/year is around $3500 annually. The same miles in a taxi in this area would be around $13,000. A hybrid electric vehicle like a Prius might save 2/3 the cost of the gas, maybe around $500 in savings. A fully electric vehicle would save 100% of the gas, around $800 in savings, but there would be additional electricity costs, net savings is probably similar to the hybrid, around $500. I hear electric vehicles may also be cheaper to maintain. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 2:55 AM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 35 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 9:05 AM | | Percy has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 34 of 47 (746552)
01-08-2015 8:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 29 by Theodoric
01-07-2015 6:22 PM
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electric fleets
Well yes, but that is only because electric cars have absolutely rubbish range.
Perfectly fine for cities and suburbs. And good for fleets and shared vehicles. Harder to steal and get away ...? Look at fleets that went to propane vehicles, this is the next step. Enjoy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by Theodoric, posted 01-07-2015 6:22 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 35 of 47 (746555)
01-08-2015 9:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 33 by Percy
01-08-2015 6:53 AM
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Re: Suburbs: Gas Vehicle versus Taxi versus Electric Vehicle
Percy writes: I hear electric vehicles may also be cheaper etc. You are, of course, missing the original capital cost, which generally makes a bit of a mess of subsequent savings. Electric vehicles maybe cheaper to maintain - or at least they should be as they are far simpler machines - but their batteries are incredibly expensive and do not last - they need replacing after a while and they gradually lose their capacity to re-charge. It also seems unlikely that dual fule engines can be low maintenance as they have two damn engines. Suburbs are the worst of all worlds for transport - neither too close nor too far for a good choice. In cities, public transport should always be the best option - after bikes and feet of course. Whether it is, only really depends on local and national policy.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by Percy, posted 01-08-2015 6:53 AM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 36 by Percy, posted 01-08-2015 9:56 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 36 of 47 (746560)
01-08-2015 9:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 35 by Tangle
01-08-2015 9:05 AM
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Re: Suburbs: Gas Vehicle versus Taxi versus Electric Vehicle
Fuel cell cars will be introduced for sale sometime this year. I hear that initially in the US they'll be marketed solely in southern California. If the technology is cheap enough and green enough then this might be the best long-term way to go. Mercedes introduced a driverless concept car at CES last week, and I understand it includes both a battery and a fuel cell. If it's possible to deliver hydrogen to homes the same way they deliver propane, or if fuel cells can be designed to run on natural gas and propane, then I wonder if fuel cells might one day replace the energy grid. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 9:05 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 37 by RAZD, posted 01-08-2015 10:09 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 37 of 47 (746563)
01-08-2015 10:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by Percy
01-08-2015 9:56 AM
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Re: Suburbs: Gas Vehicle versus Taxi versus Electric Vehicle
If it's possible to deliver hydrogen to homes the same way they deliver propane ... It is easy to produce hydrogen with electricity, the problem is storage. One storage system uses a catalyst to hold the hydrogen iirc. I would think that electrolysis and compression units outside garages would be significantly safer than trying to pipe hydrogen. Delivery in bottles like propane may work. One of the dangers is that burning hydrogen gas is not easily visible (like the blue flame of propane is) so you may need an additive (like the SO2 added to natural gas so you can smell leaks).
... or if fuel cells can be designed to run on natural gas and propane, ... They can, but production is lower than from hydrogen, and you are still dependent of fossil fuel and greenhouse gases. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : ,
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by Percy, posted 01-08-2015 9:56 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 38 of 47 (746568)
01-08-2015 10:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
01-07-2015 8:59 PM
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Re: low energy cost lost leader to harm alternative energy?
The majority of people in the USA live in cities and suburbs. Oh , I see what you did. Since the most of the US is geographically wide spaced you say they are no good for US. Pitiful attempt at misrepresenting reality.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by Jon, posted 01-07-2015 8:59 PM | | Jon has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 39 of 47 (746569)
01-08-2015 10:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
01-08-2015 2:55 AM
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Re: low energy cost lost leader to harm alternative energy?
I agree public transport is better choice. I know a lot of people that live in suburbs or cities that literally never leave except to travel by plane. A fine solution for them. For a lot of families a two car solution would work. We need two cars in our family. My wife travels 27 miles to work. An electric car would work well for commute. Currently she drives a Prius. I have a Traverse. The reason for that is to pull the camper and fit three adults, two kids when we go on trips. I also pull a trailer for canoe trips or carry firewood. So yes a two car solution is the answer for some families.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 2:55 AM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 44 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 4:25 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 40 of 47 (746580)
01-08-2015 11:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 28 by Tangle
01-07-2015 5:34 PM
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Re: low energy cost lost leader to harm alternative energy?
Well yes, but that is only because electric cars have absolutely rubbish range. The Tesla can go like 400 km on a charge. My gas car can go about 600 km on one tank. I wouldn't call 2/3 of the norm "rubbish". How much farther do you really need to go in the UK? We had a Brit here and we were discussing traveling and he was talking about how he made the really long drive up to Scotland and it took him like 5 hours. I was all: Dang, I can't get from St. Louis to Chicago in that time. I guess I hadn't realized how tiny your country is:
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2015 5:34 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 41 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 12:07 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Re: low energy cost lost leader to harm alternative energy?
And when you've gone your 400km - or rather 300ish, because you don't want to go flat and you've not driven at optimum all the way, you park it somewhere (where?) and wait many hours to recharge.
Tesla says the 60-kwh battery provides a range of up to 232 miles (the EPA pegs it at 208 miles), and the 85-kwh battery (a $10,000 option) provides up to 300 miles (the EPA puts it at 265 miles). Here are some examples for recharging times: With a single onboard charger plugged into a standard 110-volt outlet, Tesla says you will get 5 miles of range for every hour of charging. From zero to 300 miles would take about 52 hours at that rate. With a single charger connected to a 240-volt outlet, which Tesla recommends, the pace speeds up to 31 miles of range for each hour of charging, and a full 300-mile charge takes less than 9.5 hours. Step up to twin chargers on the car and connect to a 240-volt, high-power wall charger (an extra-cost charging unit, not just a 240-volt line) and the charging speed zooms to 62 miles of range per hour, and the total charging time drops to under 4 hours, 45 minutes. Really in a hurry? Stop at a Tesla Supercharger station and you can top off the tank with 300 miles of range in just an hour, as long as your Model S is configured with Supercharger capability If a Supercharger station is out of reach, most public charging stations can recharge the Model S at the rate of 22 miles of range per hour of charging. Yeh - the UK is small, but perfectly formed. Even so, I'm not interested in this technology until battery technology gets to the same level of convenience and cost as my handsome and efficient petrol car.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Taq
Member Posts: 10038 Joined: 03-06-2009 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 42 of 47 (746588)
01-08-2015 12:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 31 by Jon
01-07-2015 9:13 PM
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Re: low energy cost lost leader to harm alternative energy?
If you go back and look at my post in its entirety, you'll see I was talking about the competitiveness of alternative energy vehicles, not simply their possibility. I was focused more on this comment: "I have had so many troubles with cars and their damn electronics and gadgetry lately I'm sick of it. And the cars I use still run with a fully gasoline engine. I couldn't imagine the nightmare if the whole damn thing were nothing but trinkets, buzzers, and sparkies." I was trying to point out the utter simplicity of a battery and electric motor. It is way simpler than an internal combustion engine. I bet there is more complexity in an old carburetor than there is in a modern electric motor. The problem isn't the motor, it is the fuel.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by Jon, posted 01-07-2015 9:13 PM | | Jon has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 43 of 47 (746617)
01-08-2015 3:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 41 by Tangle
01-08-2015 12:07 PM
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Re: low energy cost lost leader to harm alternative energy?
With a single onboard charger plugged into a standard 110-volt outlet, Tesla says you will get 5 miles of range for every hour of charging. From zero to 300 miles would take about 52 hours at that rate. Oh wow, I hadn't seen that before. That's pretty lame. Thanks for sharing.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 12:07 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 44 of 47 (746626)
01-08-2015 4:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 39 by Theodoric
01-08-2015 10:52 AM
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Re: low energy cost lost leader to harm alternative energy?
Theo writes: So yes a two car solution is the answer for some families. It seems that you need two cars anyway, so making one electric would make sense if it was cost effective - but it isn't. It currently makes no financial sense to buy electric because of the capital cost and the depreciation caused by the battery problem versus a small and efficient modern petrol car that has the benefit of mass production and well established refuelling and repair and maintenance infrastructure. But replacing a single car with two is financial nonsense. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by Theodoric, posted 01-08-2015 10:52 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 45 of 47 (746631)
01-08-2015 5:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 44 by Tangle
01-08-2015 4:25 PM
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Re: low energy cost lost leader to harm alternative energy?
At one time replacing a horse with a car did not make sense either. People here act is if there will be no future advances of any other alternate means of powering a car. Do electric cars make sense for many people now? No and I think most people would agree. Does that mean it never will? Be silly to think such a thing.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 4:25 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 46 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2015 5:48 PM | | Theodoric has not replied | | | Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-09-2015 10:48 AM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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