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Author Topic:   Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!!
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 406 of 442 (822954)
11-03-2017 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by ringo
11-03-2017 1:02 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
Absent the science, it isn't obvious that the world is round. If the government figures it out, we'd better stop the presses.

Anyone is capable of making an observation that provides evidence that the world is round. In fact, the diameter of earth was measured around 200 BC. Almost none of us are capable of demonstrating that global warming is largely caused by humans.

So if obvious means, 'after a zillion scientists analyzed the situation and then published their results in a peer-reviewed process', then very few things, despite their monstrous obscurity, are non-obvious. The word obvious would then be a sound without the slightest bit of meaning.

Obviously.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 11-03-2017 1:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by ringo, posted 11-05-2017 1:09 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 407 of 442 (822955)
11-03-2017 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Taq
11-03-2017 12:42 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
. What wasn't in doubt is that human activity was trapping more heat in the atmosphere than natural processes alone, and all we needed for that was measurements in atmospheric CO2.

Actually, a lot more is required than that. The current research dismisses a number of possible natural processes, some of which are terrestrial and others which are not. The science behind the current consensus is non-trivial.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Taq, posted 11-03-2017 12:42 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by Taq, posted 11-06-2017 3:20 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 423 by glowby, posted 11-10-2017 9:15 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 408 of 442 (823024)
11-05-2017 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by NoNukes
11-03-2017 11:08 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
NoNukes writes:

So if obvious means, 'after a zillion scientists analyzed the situation and then published their results in a peer-reviewed process'....


Well, that's what happened. It happened a while ago already and the pile is still getting bigger. So yes, it is @#$%ing obvious and we didn't need the government to confirm the obvious.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2017 11:08 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(4)
Message 409 of 442 (823153)
11-06-2017 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by NoNukes
11-03-2017 11:10 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
NoNukes writes:

Actually, a lot more is required than that. The current research dismisses a number of possible natural processes, some of which are terrestrial and others which are not. The science behind the current consensus is non-trivial.

Abiotic production of atmospheric CO2 is ruled out by the shift in carbon isotopes which clearly pegs the recent increases as a result of burning fossil fuels. If there were natural processes that were also raising temps, it would still not make our contribution to warming go away, it would simply add to it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2017 11:10 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2017 9:24 PM Taq has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 410 of 442 (823236)
11-07-2017 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by Taq
11-06-2017 3:20 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
If there were natural processes that were also raising temps, it would still not make our contribution to warming go away, it would simply add to it.

I am not debating whether climate changed is predominantly caused by humans. What I am debating is that the fact can be considered obvious. If there were natural processes, some of which raised temps and some of which lowered temps, it could turn out that the human contribution is relatively unimportant, and that none of efforts will prevent the east coast from moving to Atlanta by the end of the decade. As jar is found of saying, it is the best case if humans are in responsible for the bulk, or a substantial part of global warning, because it is only the part within human control that we have a shot at fixing.

I am not a climate scientist, and as a result, there are many questions raised by folks who deny client scientist that I accept that our scientists have answered. There are some areas where I defer to scientists because I cannot understand the science on my own. In my opinion, that means that the conclusions are non obvious.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Taq, posted 11-06-2017 3:20 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by RAZD, posted 11-08-2017 6:59 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 417 by Taq, posted 11-08-2017 12:43 PM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 411 of 442 (823248)
11-08-2017 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by NoNukes
11-07-2017 9:24 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
... What I am debating is that the fact can be considered obvious. ...

To people in affected areas. On Monday the end of our street and the cross street were flooded, and the only rain was a little sprinkle that hardly generated any runoff. What we had was a Harvest Super Moon, and very high tides, and the storm sewers backed up onto the streets. Similar in many places in Florida. Engineers don't design sewers to back up onto streets.

... If there were natural processes, some of which raised temps and some of which lowered temps, it could turn out that the human contribution is relatively unimportant, and that none of efforts will prevent the east coast from moving to Atlanta by the end of the decade. ...

Future waterfront.

But the evidence shows that it is human generated rather than natural.

... As jar is found of saying, it is the best case if humans are in responsible for the bulk, or a substantial part of global warning, because it is only the part within human control that we have a shot at fixing.

Only as long as we elect people that aren't climate change denying idiots.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2017 9:24 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2017 9:56 AM RAZD has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(2)
Message 412 of 442 (823253)
11-08-2017 8:31 AM


The facts today are ...
... that the only things we can address are human made factors.

... in the US the greatest and most cherished Freedom is to be utterly stupid.

... the GREAT DICTUM in the US is to never put off until tomorrow what can be put off to the next generation.

... in the US the most common practice is to always elect the least competent candidate.

... in the US the GREAT TRUTH is that it is always their fault.

... in the US the GREAT RELIGIOUS PRACTICE is to Leave it to Jesus.

... the goal of the US is to enshrine ignorance.

... the answer is "Why didn't someone do something to prevent it!"


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 413 of 442 (823256)
11-08-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by RAZD
11-08-2017 6:59 AM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
imilar in many places in Florida. Engineers don't design sewers to back up onto streets.

Let's distinguish between climate and bad weather. Where I lived as a kid in Atlanta, the sewers did back up after an occasional rain.

I find it amusing that people claim that global warming is obvious. It appears to me that both those who believe in AGW and those who do not, continue in their belief largely because of what they have been told rather than because of being convinced by the science.

But the evidence shows that it is human generated rather than natural.

Of course!! The evidence, with the proper scientific analysis, and the proper modeling all lead inescapably to that conclusion. But saying that, and claiming that the conclusion is obvious is not the same thing. When folks make that claim, it simply convinces me that they have a very limited understanding of what is involved in a field of science that they don't practice in.

One might say the same thing about evolution, general relativity, etc. Those things all make logical sense and are well supported by evidence and science. Are they obvious... maybe not.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by RAZD, posted 11-08-2017 6:59 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by jar, posted 11-08-2017 10:14 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 415 by RAZD, posted 11-08-2017 12:35 PM NoNukes has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 414 of 442 (823257)
11-08-2017 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by NoNukes
11-08-2017 9:56 AM


it's obvious that those with eyes choose not to see.
NN writes:

Let's distinguish between climate and bad weather.

We had a little bit of bad weather not long ago in mid Texas, particularly around Houston.

The bad weather was pretty obvious.

What may not have been obvious was that most of the losses and damage were human caused and caused by choice. Houston has a long history of flooding and no real zoning or regulations about where to build or how to build to avoid flooding, and every effort to implement zoning and building regulations has been voted down.

The people of Houston decided not to address the issue of bad weather.

Edited by jar, : fumble fingers


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2017 9:56 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Taq, posted 11-08-2017 12:46 PM jar has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 415 of 442 (823261)
11-08-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by NoNukes
11-08-2017 9:56 AM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
imilar in many places in Florida. Engineers don't design sewers to back up onto streets.

Let's distinguish between climate and bad weather. Where I lived as a kid in Atlanta, the sewers did back up after an occasional rain.

I thought I had, I'm talking about the roads flooding via the sewers due to high tide not storms. If tides had been that high when the sewers were designed a different system would have been used that prevented such back-flows.

Likewise the roads would have been built higher to avoid such flooding.

That makes it obvious that such flooding has some other cause: global warming is the only known possibility.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2017 9:56 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2017 12:41 PM RAZD has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 416 of 442 (823263)
11-08-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by RAZD
11-08-2017 12:35 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
That makes it obvious that such flooding has some other cause: global warming is the only known possibility.

The question here is not just global warming, but AGW, meaning human-induced effects.

Again, let's remember that you are not debating a skeptic.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by RAZD, posted 11-08-2017 12:35 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by RAZD, posted 11-08-2017 12:55 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 417 of 442 (823264)
11-08-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by NoNukes
11-07-2017 9:24 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
NoNukes writes:

If there were natural processes, some of which raised temps and some of which lowered temps, it could turn out that the human contribution is relatively unimportant, and that none of efforts will prevent the east coast from moving to Atlanta by the end of the decade.

The part I am saying is obvious is that dumping a bunch of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere will necessarily trap more heat than would otherwise be trapped. I will agree that it isn't obvious how much of a relative difference that extra trapped heat has made and will make, but the obvious part is that it is being trapped.

As jar is found of saying, it is the best case if humans are in responsible for the bulk, or a substantial part of global warning, because it is only the part within human control that we have a shot at fixing.

On the other side of the spectrum, if we were heading into another cycle of glaciation then it might actually be beneficial to start burning a ton of fossil fuels. A 1 mile thick glacier grinding its way through NY, NY would be just as bad or even worse than slowly encroaching sea water.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2017 9:24 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2017 12:47 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 418 of 442 (823265)
11-08-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by jar
11-08-2017 10:14 AM


Re: it's obvious that those with eyes choose not to see.
jar writes:

What may not have been obvious was that most of the losses and damage were human caused and caused by choice. Houston has a long history of flooding and no real zoning or regulations about where to build or how to build to avoid flooding, and every effort to implement zoning and building regulations has been voted down.

The analogy I often use is the link between cigarette smoking and lung cancer. It is very true that some people who don't smoke can get lung cancer, and some people who do smoke don't get lung cancer. What they found is that cigarette smoking increases the probability that you will get lung cancer.

Climate change and strong storms are the same. The increased heat energy in the atmosphere and in the oceans increases the probability that strong storms will occur.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by jar, posted 11-08-2017 10:14 AM jar has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 419 of 442 (823266)
11-08-2017 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by Taq
11-08-2017 12:43 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
The part I am saying is obvious is that dumping a bunch of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere will necessarily trap more heat than would otherwise be trapped.

Yes. That's just physics and chemistry. However, even that is only "obvious" to the educated.

I will agree that it isn't obvious how much of a relative difference that extra trapped heat has made and will make, but the obvious part is that it is being trapped.

I am not disagreeing with any of that. What I am disagreeing with is the tendency to underestimate the complexity of the science. I doubt that one out of five folks here understands the science well enough to answer well thought out objections of the few scientists who don't agree with the consensus.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Taq, posted 11-08-2017 12:43 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Taq, posted 11-08-2017 1:02 PM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 420 of 442 (823267)
11-08-2017 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by NoNukes
11-08-2017 12:41 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
The question here is not just global warming, but AGW, meaning human-induced effects.

Again, let's remember that you are not debating a skeptic.

The best presentation of the evidence that I've seen yet is this one:

https://www.bloomberg.com/...cs/2015-whats-warming-the-world

(can't reproduce the animated graphics here)

It runs through all the different considered causes of global warming and shows that the overwhelming contribution comes from man's fossil fuel usage.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2017 12:41 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
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