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Author Topic:   Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!!
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 421 of 442 (823269)
11-08-2017 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by NoNukes
11-08-2017 12:47 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
NoNukes writes:

Yes. That's just physics and chemistry. However, even that is only "obvious" to the educated.

If we pump a bunch of stuff in the atmosphere that traps heat, what do you think the result will be?

I think a vast majority of people would be able to figure out what the answer to that question is.

I am not disagreeing with any of that. What I am disagreeing with is the tendency to underestimate the complexity of the science. I doubt that one out of five folks here understands the science well enough to answer well thought out objections of the few scientists who don't agree with the consensus.

That's part of the con game that climate deniers use. They throw up a big smoke screen of complicated science to give the impression that they aren't just denying the science. Time after time we hear politicians (i.e. Republicans) saying that there is still a lot of debate among scientists, which is eerily similar to the refrain used by creationists. The common person isn't going to look up the science nor spend the time necessary to understand it, so they will just echo the same misinformation that the Republicans dish out to them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by NoNukes, posted 11-08-2017 12:47 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2017 7:07 PM Taq has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 422 of 442 (823491)
11-10-2017 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by Taq
11-08-2017 1:02 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
If we pump a bunch of stuff in the atmosphere that traps heat, what do you think the result will be?

Sigh. I have addressed this question a number of times, including in the post you are responding to. Yes, CO2 is a greenhouse gas. If you believe that to be the only factor that needs to be considered, then you have an overly simple idea of the science behind AGW.

Again, CO2 is pumped into the atmosphere by humans, and it is also removed by a number of mechanisms. Things other than people also put CO2 and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. There are also things like water vapor, methane, etc. Some of which have man-made and natural variation each having its own "half-life" within the atmosphere.

We know the conclusion of those processes only because they fit of complex models that most of us don't understand fully, and the tracking of those models of the atmosphere, ocean, etc with temperatures we've measured along with other analysis that rules out the idea that what we understand to be the human contribution is either attributable to non-humans or to errors in measurement.

Of course, all of that science I don't understand is somebody else's job five days a week. Feel free to call the conclusions obvious. But perhaps it is a little more clear why I disagree with your call.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Taq, posted 11-08-2017 1:02 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Taq, posted 11-13-2017 5:37 PM NoNukes has responded

    
glowby
Member
Posts: 60
From: Fox River Grove, IL
Joined: 05-29-2010


Message 423 of 442 (823493)
11-10-2017 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by NoNukes
11-03-2017 11:10 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
The current research dismisses a number of possible natural processes, some of which are terrestrial and others which are not.

What processes are those? Is there any reason to believe that any have changed significantly during the last 150 years?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2017 11:10 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 10:44 AM glowby has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 424 of 442 (823505)
11-11-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by glowby
11-10-2017 9:15 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
What processes are those? Is there any reason to believe that any have changed significantly during the last 150 years?

That is a great question. It is one which folks ought to ask themselves when they insist that climate science is easy.

I am no expert, but I know that there are non-human weather patterns that take up decades. El Nino and El Nina are examples of those. I also know that the last ice age was longer ago that 150 years. Solar activity cycles are decades long. Not only that, but the earth is a big, complex place. We should expect that effects lag behind their causes for substantial amounts of time.

The point is not that AGW is not the correct conclusion, but rather that climate science is not for amateurs or armchair quarterbacks. We ought to believe that AGW is real, not because it is obvious, but because our scientists have done their homework, and have drawn the correct conclusions.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by glowby, posted 11-10-2017 9:15 PM glowby has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by jar, posted 11-11-2017 11:16 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 435 by glowby, posted 11-11-2017 10:58 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 425 of 442 (823506)
11-11-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 424 by NoNukes
11-11-2017 10:44 AM


The REAL point is ...
NN writes:

We ought to believe that AGW is real, not because it is obvious, but because our scientists have done their homework, and have drawn the correct conclusions.

The REAL point is that the cause is totally irrelevant. It's a stupid attempt to avoid addressing tough issues.

The FACT is that the only things we have any control over are those contributions made by humans.

All the crap about what is causing global warming is just a distraction.

Why are we as a NATION not setting up zoning and building codes and moving people out the the places they should not be in and preparing a versatile and easily modified and restructured infrastructure? Why are we still allowing non-permeable paving to be used? Why are we allowing curbs and gutters to still exist and not requiring water retention facilities like catch basins designed to slow the runoff from storms and let the water get absorbed into the ground?

When will we start saying "Nope, don't care, you cannot build here!"


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 10:44 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by RAZD, posted 11-11-2017 12:41 PM jar has responded
 Message 428 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 2:56 PM jar has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 426 of 442 (823508)
11-11-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by jar
11-11-2017 11:16 AM


Kathleen Hartnett White has no clue ...
The REAL point is that the cause is totally irrelevant. It's a stupid attempt to avoid addressing tough issues.

The FACT is that the only things we have any control over are those contributions made by humans.

quote:
Kathleen Hartnett White, President Trumps pick for Council on Environmental Quality, sat before her first senate confirmation hearing on Wednesday and like many of Trumps appointees, White demonstrated an astounding lack of knowledge on the very subject she would be in charge of overseeing. A former Texas environmental state regulator who once actually compared belief in global warming to paganism, at best, stammered through the line of questioning.

When asked by Senator Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) roughly how much of the excess heat captured by greenhouse gasses has been absorbed the the ocean, White countered by saying she didnt have numbers like that. Even when Whitehouse followed up, asking her if she knew whether it was more or less than 50 percent, White asked for him to repeat the question, noted that she had read about that, but ultimately could not provide an answer.

White then incorrectly noted, I believe there are difference of opinions on that, that theres not one right answer, to which Whitehouse incredulously shot back, Really? Do you think theres actual serious difference of opinion on whether its below 50 percent? Um, unless Im mistaken, yes, White responded.

When asked a followup about the basic principles of thermal expansion, and whether or not that applies to seawater, White gave another mind boggling response. Again, I do not have any kind of expertise or even much laymans study on the ocean dynamics and the climate change issues, she stated. Just enough to know that you think theres enough science that establishes clearly how much of the heat has been taken up by the oceans you knew that, you said you knew that, Whitehouse fired back, before exasperatedly shutting down the line of questioning.


When you elect an idiot, they will appoint idiots because they don't know any better.

Too bad Sheldon didn't ask her your question

Enjoy?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by jar, posted 11-11-2017 11:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by jar, posted 11-11-2017 12:52 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 427 of 442 (823509)
11-11-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by RAZD
11-11-2017 12:41 PM


Re: Kathleen Hartnett White has no clue ...
When Deplorables elect Deplorables the elected Deplorables hire Deplorables to make deplorable decisions based on deplorable understanding of reality.

But just like the folk in Houston who caused most of the damage done by Harvey the Deplorables will be shocked that nothing was done to protect them when the shit hits the fan.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by RAZD, posted 11-11-2017 12:41 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 428 of 442 (823511)
11-11-2017 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by jar
11-11-2017 11:16 AM


Re: The REAL point is ...
It does matter what portion of GW is human caused when we are deciding which actions to take. Policy can deal with either coping with the problem or stopping/reducing the effects, or some combination. It is not feasible to make rational policies without assessing causes as best we can.

I understand your point, but your advice isn't all that useful for folks who already know we need to do something.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by jar, posted 11-11-2017 11:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by jar, posted 11-11-2017 4:06 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 430 by RAZD, posted 11-11-2017 4:46 PM NoNukes has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 429 of 442 (823515)
11-11-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by NoNukes
11-11-2017 2:56 PM


Re: The REAL point is ...
NN writes:

I understand your point, but your advice isn't all that useful for folks who already know we need to do something.

Nonsense and still utterly irrelevant. The fact is that discussion is only useful as a way to continue to do nothing and nothing is what the US seems very good at doing.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 2:56 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 6:15 PM jar has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 430 of 442 (823519)
11-11-2017 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by NoNukes
11-11-2017 2:56 PM


Re: The REAL point is ...
It does matter what portion of GW is human caused when we are deciding which actions to take. Policy can deal with either coping with the problem or stopping/reducing the effects, or some combination. It is not feasible to make rational policies without assessing causes as best we can.

At what point should action be taken ...

<1% human caused?
1% to 5% human caused?
5% to 10% human caused?
10% to 50% human caused?
>75% human caused?

Hint: it's over 75% and climbing ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 2:56 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 5:18 PM RAZD has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 431 of 442 (823522)
11-11-2017 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by RAZD
11-11-2017 4:46 PM


Re: The REAL point is ...
At what point should action be taken ...

Apparently, I am leaving the wrong impression. I believe that we are already well passed the point where action should be taken, and have in fact reached the point where our failure to act has had negative consequence.

I am taking issue with the claim that the relative size of the human contribution is of no importance. That's simply incorrect.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by RAZD, posted 11-11-2017 4:46 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2017 9:24 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 438 by ringo, posted 11-13-2017 11:04 AM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 432 of 442 (823523)
11-11-2017 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by jar
11-11-2017 4:06 PM


Re: The REAL point is ...
The fact is that discussion is only useful as a way to continue to do nothing and nothing is what the US seems very good at doing.

A discussion is a necessary prelude to any concerted action; at least that is my opinion. But, let's hear about your solution that does not involve any discussion.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by jar, posted 11-11-2017 4:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by jar, posted 11-11-2017 6:30 PM NoNukes has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 433 of 442 (823525)
11-11-2017 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by NoNukes
11-11-2017 6:15 PM


Re: The REAL point is ...
NN writes:

A discussion is a necessary prelude to any concerted action; at least that is my opinion. But, let's hear about your solution that does not involve any discussion.

Learn to read; I said "that discussion" (and you even quoted it when you should have read it) not "any discussion".

What I have said in this here very thread was that discussion was needed; discussion about construction limitations, where we should build, how we should build, how we need to change our infrastructure.

What is utterly stupid is the discussion about what is causing the warming.

Why are we as a NATION not setting up zoning and building codes and moving people out the the places they should not be in and preparing a versatile and easily modified and restructured infrastructure? Why are we still allowing non-permeable paving to be used? Why are we allowing curbs and gutters to still exist and not requiring water retention facilities like catch basins designed to slow the runoff from storms and let the water get absorbed into the ground?

When will we start saying "Nope, don't care, you cannot build here!"

When cancer is diagnosed it is often more effective to treat the cancer rather then debate what actually caused it. That can wait until after we solve the problem.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 6:15 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 8:35 PM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10056
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 434 of 442 (823527)
11-11-2017 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by jar
11-11-2017 6:30 PM


Re: The REAL point is ...
Learn to read; I said "that discussion"

Perhaps you should learn to talk. Here are two sentences, earch written by you, each with the phrase "that discussion" in them. Neither usage would appear to reference a past discussion. The most recent one I will cite first. That one definitely does not reference a past discussion:

What I have said in this here very thread was that discussion was needed

Your current claim is that this one does reference a past discussion:

The fact is that discussion is only useful as a way to continue to do nothing and nothing is what the US seems very good at doing.

If "that" has the meaning you are now claiming, your expression of that meaning was completely unclear. You quite obviously don't consistently use that in the way you are now insisting one.

In any event, your position that we need not discuss just what the amount of human contribution might be is ridiculous. But as for my reading comprehension... I can read just fine. But apparently, you cannot even keep your phrasing consistent when you are trying to correct me.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by jar, posted 11-11-2017 6:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by jar, posted 11-12-2017 6:08 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
glowby
Member
Posts: 60
From: Fox River Grove, IL
Joined: 05-29-2010


Message 435 of 442 (823530)
11-11-2017 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by NoNukes
11-11-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
I realize that you accept AGW but you're spinning things in a very similar way as deniers do.

...I know that there are non-human weather patterns that take up decades.

Climate scientists know this too. People's vague impression of these patterns is due to their work. They've been unable to identify any pattern that can account for the current warming nor any effects that are now manifesting themselves from any such pattern.

Solar activity cycles are decades long.

Except for the sunspot cycle of 11 yrs or so, all are much MUCH longer. None are reliably periodic. There's little reason to think these cycles could make climate turn on a dime, as it is now, and if this were occurring, solar or cosmic changes would be unmistakable. This smacks of the deniers' "It's the Sun, stupid!" argument. Total solar irradiance is slightly down for the last few decades. We should be cooling very slightly, if it's the Sun.

It's not the sun.

Not only that, but the earth is a big, complex place.

Another denier favorite. Unless every mechanism of cause and effect in climate can be understood to the Nth degree, there's no way of knowing how much (or IF) man is having an effect. Deniers of tobacco's dangers used similar ploys. In both manufactured debates, science knew more than enough to make assessments of the dangers. Rational amateurs were able to understand.

We should expect that effects lag behind their causes for substantial amounts of time.

This seems to builds off the solar/cosmic Mystery Cause(s) that deniers suggest but can't identify, and believe that the world of science is willfully oblivious to or hiding from us.

The point is not that AGW is not the correct conclusion, but rather that climate science is not for amateurs or armchair quarterbacks.

Agreed. But virtually none of modern science is for amateurs. The disparity of understanding between your average guy and science is only made an issue when people need to deny science. No one is going to, for example, release a helium balloon on the floor of the senate, in order to contest the scientific basis of theories of gravity. There's no money or power to be gained or lost by accepting the scientific consensus.

Although the nitty-gritty nuts and bolts of climate science are way over the head of the average guy, it isn't that hard to understand the summarized views that have come about over the generations. I gathered the science for my counter-arguments above from an armchair. (Actually a swiveling desk chair. No arms.).

Neither is it hard to see when science is being challenged for ideological rather than technical reasons. It seems that some of the points you've tried to make here have been influenced by the industrial and political forces that are battling climate science. Or at least, you've adopted a slanted view toward climate science in particular that deniers take advantage of in many people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 10:44 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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