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Author Topic:   Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!!
jar
Member
Posts: 30405
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 436 of 491 (823537)
11-12-2017 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by NoNukes
11-11-2017 8:35 PM


Re: The REAL point is ...
And I even pointed out that the term that can be used in different meanings, however since the discussion was about whether or not the cause of warming was relevant, that that referred to that discussion.

But the fact is that that discussion is still irrelevant and simply another attempt to palm the pea, move the goal post, find a way to not address THAT issue.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 8:35 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19509
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 437 of 491 (823540)
11-12-2017 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by NoNukes
11-11-2017 5:18 PM


Re: The REAL point is ...
Apparently, I am leaving the wrong impression. I believe that we are already well passed the point where action should be taken, and have in fact reached the point where our failure to act has had negative consequence.

So we agree that it's >75% human caused.

I am taking issue with the claim that the relative size of the human contribution is of no importance. That's simply incorrect.

Allow me to come from a different angle: what can we do ...

What action can we take that gives the most "bang for the buck" in reducing climate change?

reduce atmospheric CO2 emissions (fossil fuel use)?
reduce volcanic action?
reduce solar radiation?
change the earth's orbit?
enhance natural CO2 take-up systems (trees, algae, etc)?
other _______?

What action can we take as individuals to assist reducing climate change?

reduce motor-vehicle use?
reduce plastic use?
utilize solar panels?
utilize wind power?
campaign for political change?
educate others?

Does the relative size of human caused climate change affect these answers?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 5:18 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14627
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 438 of 491 (823580)
11-13-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by NoNukes
11-11-2017 5:18 PM


Re: The REAL point is ...
NoNukes writes:

I am taking issue with the claim that the relative size of the human contribution is of no importance. That's simply incorrect.


I think we'd be better off if we had never figured out that the globe was warming. We could be reducing our use of fossil fuels because they pollute the air we breathe.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2017 5:18 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by NoNukes, posted 11-13-2017 1:15 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10695
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 439 of 491 (823598)
11-13-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by ringo
11-13-2017 11:04 AM


Re: The REAL point is ...
"I think we'd be better off if we had never figured out the the globe was warming".

Maybe you are right. I personally think that the politics behind clean air is at an even higher level of denial than is that of global warming. People are willing to argue that not having a job is just as harmful to your health as smog. Of course that turns out to be true only because of our equally dicked up health care system which denies care to folks without lots of money.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by ringo, posted 11-13-2017 11:04 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7433
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 440 of 491 (823608)
11-13-2017 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by NoNukes
11-10-2017 7:07 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
NoNukes writes:

Sigh. I have addressed this question a number of times, including in the post you are responding to. Yes, CO2 is a greenhouse gas. If you believe that to be the only factor that needs to be considered, then you have an overly simple idea of the science behind AGW.

I never said that it is the only thing that needs to be considered. I said that it is the OBVIOUS part. It is OBVIOUS that no matter what contribution humans are making to warming, we are still making a contribution because we are increasing the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

Again, CO2 is pumped into the atmosphere by humans, and it is also removed by a number of mechanisms. Things other than people also put CO2 and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. There are also things like water vapor, methane, etc. Some of which have man-made and natural variation each having its own "half-life" within the atmosphere.

The previous 400,000 years has seen several ice ages and interglacials that bounce between 200 and 300 ppm CO2. The graph suddenly jumps to 400 ppm, an increase of 30%, and it does so during the time when we are burning gigatons of CO2. I think it is rather obvious that humans are increasing CO2 well above natural levels.

The argument that this is a natural level of CO2 just doesn't stack up. On top of that, the half life of water in the atmosphere is about 2 weeks. People know this as rain, which they should be familiar with. They can watch weather radar where water evaporates off the oceans, sweeps inland, and then dumps rain. All this happens in a matter of weeks.

We know the conclusion of those processes only because they fit of complex models that most of us don't understand fully, and the tracking of those models of the atmosphere, ocean, etc with temperatures we've measured along with other analysis that rules out the idea that what we understand to be the human contribution is either attributable to non-humans or to errors in measurement.

You don't need models or anything complicated to show that humans are causing more heat to be trapped in the atmosphere. Again, we are talking about the OBVIOUS parts, not the complicated parts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2017 7:07 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by NoNukes, posted 11-13-2017 6:27 PM Taq has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10695
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 441 of 491 (823609)
11-13-2017 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Taq
11-13-2017 5:37 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
Unless you want to argue that it is irrelevant whether we have 2 degrees or 0.2 degrees increase (due to human contribution of course) in temps over the next 50 years, then modeling does matter. It is not possible to make reasonable policy decisions on human activity without such information.

Edited by NoNukes, : clarify meaning.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Taq, posted 11-13-2017 5:37 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Taq, posted 11-14-2017 5:47 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7433
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 442 of 491 (823632)
11-14-2017 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by NoNukes
11-13-2017 6:27 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
NoNukes writes:

Unless you want to argue that it is irrelevant whether we have 2 degrees or 0.2 degrees increase (due to human contribution of course) in temps over the next 50 years, then modeling does matter. It is not possible to make reasonable policy decisions on human activity without such information.

I think you need to go back one step. Your standard AGW denier out in the public may not even understand what the greenhouse effect is, how it works, or what makes CO2 a greenhouse gas. They may very well deny that pumping CO2 into the atmosphere traps heat. Once you convince them that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the rest of the conversation may go a lot easier.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by NoNukes, posted 11-13-2017 6:27 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by NoNukes, posted 11-26-2017 2:02 PM Taq has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17325
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 443 of 491 (824302)
11-26-2017 7:28 AM


Biodiversity Destroyer Denier
This isn't the right topic for this, but this is the closest I could find. Today an editorial appeared in the Washington Post arguing that we shouldn't be trying to save endangered species, or any species: We dont need to save endangered species. Extinction is part of evolution.

--Percy


    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10695
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 444 of 491 (824317)
11-26-2017 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by Taq
11-14-2017 5:47 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
"Your standard AGW denier"

I am not having a discussion with AGW deniers or about them. I am discussing the science that would be needed to convince normally, and appropriately skeptical people. Knowing that CO2 is a green house gas is just one fact among many. Not sure why it is painful to acknowledge that some "rocket science" is involved.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by Taq, posted 11-14-2017 5:47 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Pressie, posted 11-27-2017 5:54 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 446 by Pressie, posted 11-27-2017 5:59 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 448 by Taq, posted 12-01-2017 5:18 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1901
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 445 of 491 (824332)
11-27-2017 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by NoNukes
11-26-2017 2:02 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
I think that it is the other way round. All the latest natural sciences involve speciality. "Rocket science". Not many people can understand the specialisation.

As a sedimentologist who specialised in coal, I don't have the foggiest idea of what burning of coal can do to the athmosphere or the health of people, apart from knowing that the smoke coming off burning coal can't be good for the people living around that burning coal fire. People actually die when they inhale the fumes coming off coal fires.

Coughing, can't take deep breaths, getting cancer, etc. Burning coal can't be good for the lungs.

Burning coal for energy is on the way out. And good riddence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by NoNukes, posted 11-26-2017 2:02 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1901
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 446 of 491 (824333)
11-27-2017 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by NoNukes
11-26-2017 2:02 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
I can see that you didn't live in Soweto in the seventies and you don't live in eMalahleni today...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by NoNukes, posted 11-26-2017 2:02 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by NoNukes, posted 11-27-2017 3:03 PM Pressie has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10695
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 447 of 491 (824372)
11-27-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Pressie
11-27-2017 5:59 AM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
I can see that you didn't live in Soweto in the seventies and you don't live in eMalahleni today...

If I did live in one of those places, and I did not have access to the science, I would have no idea what the cause of the climate change was.

Seriously, this discussion is getting ridiculous. I am convinced that AGW is reality. I am not a denier. But that does not make my conclusion something that is obvious nor does it mean that I formed my conclusion correctly, although I did take a serious stab at understanding the evidence. I believe that most folks on both sides of the issue are all but clueless about the science. This discussion is reinforcing that belief.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Pressie, posted 11-27-2017 5:59 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7433
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 448 of 491 (824657)
12-01-2017 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by NoNukes
11-26-2017 2:02 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
NoNukes writes:

Not sure why it is painful to acknowledge that some "rocket science" is involved.

It isn't painful at all, and I have acknowledged the presence of rocket science in previous posts. All I am pointing to is that some of the science is easily accessible to the common person.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by NoNukes, posted 11-26-2017 2:02 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10804
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 449 of 491 (824874)
12-04-2017 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by NoNukes
11-03-2017 12:33 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
NN writes:

Absent the science, and the government report is simply a report of the consensus among scientists, I would suggest that the fact that humans are the driver of global client change is not obvious.

Lots of things obvious to scientists are not obvious to people on the street.

As I have said before, the real issue is not whether the warming is happening globally. The issue is a struggle of control over the solutions. One side wants governments to do something. The other side (Trumps) wants governments to butt out and focus on doing their job.

Trust me, Trump is already eyeing the possible investment opportunities to be made through climate change-related business activity.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2017 12:33 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by Taq, posted 12-04-2017 4:25 PM Phat has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7433
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 450 of 491 (824878)
12-04-2017 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by Phat
12-04-2017 4:01 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
Phat writes:

One side wants governments to do something. The other side (Trumps) wants governments to butt out and focus on doing their job.

Both sides wants government to do something, they just differ on what that something is. The whole reason for having a government is "doing something".

Also, Republicans are flat out denying that the warming is even happening. It isn't a matter of what we should do about it, but rather an "ostrich with its head in the ground" approach to inconvenient facts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Phat, posted 12-04-2017 4:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by Phat, posted 12-04-2017 4:36 PM Taq has responded

  
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