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Author Topic:   Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!!
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 451 of 505 (824881)
12-04-2017 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Taq
12-04-2017 4:25 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
The Republicans likely fear higher taxes on themselves to remedy the solution...they would rather let private enterprise fix the planet.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Taq, posted 12-04-2017 4:25 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by Taq, posted 12-04-2017 4:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
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Posts: 7572
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(6)
Message 452 of 505 (824884)
12-04-2017 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Phat
12-04-2017 4:36 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
Phat writes:

The Republicans likely fear higher taxes on themselves to remedy the solution...they would rather let private enterprise fix the planet.

First, they would have to admit that what we are doing is warming the planet.

Second, private enterprise is meant to turn a profit, not fix a planet. It's a bit like using a torque wrench to measure the frequency of UV light. Wrong tool for the job. As we saw with the recent Great Recession of 2008, private enterprise will forgo the long term health of an economy in order to earn short term profits. If this is what they do to the economy, imagine what this strategy will do to the planet. The whole reason we have the EPA is because companies can't be counted on to protect the environment on their own.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
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Posts: 17739
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


(5)
Message 453 of 505 (830206)
03-24-2018 9:53 PM


Climate Science Special Report
Didnt see where anyone had posted this yet: Climate Science Special Report

Written by the authors of the governments National Climate Assessment, its intended as a lay level report on why climate change is real, why it is really us, and how it will affect people both broadly and personally.

Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Faith, posted 03-26-2018 8:43 AM Percy has responded

    
jar
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Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 454 of 505 (830216)
03-25-2018 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 452 by Taq
12-04-2017 4:51 PM


Re: Climate Is Warming And Humans Are The Cause
How many Americans remember Bhopal and the lesson that we can learn about Corporate Concern and Responsibility?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Faith
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Posts: 29832
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 455 of 505 (830266)
03-26-2018 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by Percy
03-24-2018 9:53 PM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Does it cover the American food industry, especially the meat industry, which according to many of the films I've mentioned on the natural foods thread is the biggest contributor to climate change of all of them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Percy, posted 03-24-2018 9:53 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by frako, posted 03-26-2018 9:41 AM Faith has responded
 Message 463 by Percy, posted 03-26-2018 12:21 PM Faith has responded
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frako
Member
Posts: 2792
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 456 of 505 (830267)
03-26-2018 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by Faith
03-26-2018 8:43 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Trying to get meat of of peoples tables is even harder then trying to take their gas away. The only real solution would be depopulation there are at least 4 billion to many of us. We are the last generation that parties like there is no tomorrow, the ones that come after us will know only hunger and suffering because we fucked up their planet.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Faith, posted 03-26-2018 8:43 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by Phat, posted 03-26-2018 9:56 AM frako has not yet responded
 Message 459 by Faith, posted 03-26-2018 10:11 AM frako has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 457 of 505 (830268)
03-26-2018 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 454 by jar
03-25-2018 8:32 AM


Responsibility. The Buck Stops Here
Tis an early morning where I awoke with pain in my feet, which ironically is a mixed blessing...pain means feeling, and feeling means hope. So I read the last 4 or 5 posts of this topic...and in the meantime was thinking of what the theme of climate change should be.
jar brought up Bhopal and since I had never paid attention to any news that never benefitted me personally, never really heard about the Bhopal disaster apart from just another disaster in the news, as I was around 25 years old at that time and much too narcissistic regarding my own life at the time to give it more than a passing thought.

This is likely true even today for much of the American public. They regard news as infotainment and only see it in the eyes of what benefits them personally...oblivious to the deaths and harms caused to others in faraway places....even Houston was too far away for many of us during the last hurricane, after all. And yet the keyword regarding the whole issue of climate change is responsibility. Obviously, we cannot control the weather, despite what HAARP conspiracy theorists assert, ( ) and yet the bottom line is what we the people can and should be responsible for. Union Carbide shirked responsibility for their disaster, yet ended up paying costly fines for their part in that disaster.

Human error was responsible, and bills will get paid whenever harm is done to other humans (usually, anyway) the driverless car scenarios being a current case-in-point.

Faith writes:

Does it (the climate change report) cover the American food industry, especially the meat industry, which according to many of the films I've mentioned on the natural foods thread is the biggest contributor to climate change of all of them.

Again, the report merely informs us of the known facts and leaves the conclusion open to public discussion.
We are responsible as a species for doing the best that we can for the interests of all of us and not simply Americans, Union Carbide, or Tyson, JBS, or Cargill.

Politically, the debate will continue over whether the government should enforce basic standards and responsibilities or whether the people themselves should give the government a mandate for doing so.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by jar, posted 03-25-2018 8:32 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 458 of 505 (830269)
03-26-2018 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 456 by frako
03-26-2018 9:41 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
frako writes:

Trying to get meat off of peoples tables is even harder than trying to take their gas away. The only real solution would be depopulation there are at least 4 billion too many of us.

We are the last generation that parties like there is no tomorrow, the ones that come after us will know only hunger and suffering because we fucked up their planet.

I hope that what you say isn't prophetically true. I personally have no offspring, but I certainly wouldn't want to leave a messed up planet as a legacy for the future simply so that I may be a glutton in the present. The whole climate change issue is mired in political brinksmanship. There needs to be an agreement between the parties---a consensus on what to do about an issue that quite obviously exists. Many will continue denying reality, labeling it fake news and justifying their support of the corporations that care only for short-term profits and have no conscience regarding steps to be taken to ensure a sustainable future for their offspring. After all, if corporations are legally a person, they logically should have offspring.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by frako, posted 03-26-2018 9:41 AM frako has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29832
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 459 of 505 (830270)
03-26-2018 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 456 by frako
03-26-2018 9:41 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Trying to get meat of of peoples tables is even harder then trying to take their gas away. .

If you try to get people to do it for the sake of the environment then of course it would be impossible, but my interest in all these things is primarily in improving my health. I've been learning a lot in the process about the enormous numbers of animals killed every year to feed us and the horrific conditions they are raised in, which adds to the human health problem in lots of ways, but also to environmental problems. It's the studies that show that the huge amount of animal products we eat, in the west anyway, are actually bad for our health that matters most to me in the end and that would be the best way to persuade people to cut way back. For their own sake. And in the process it also would benefit the environment in many ways. We could plant more crops instead, replenish the rain forests too. Of course we'd need a way to bring consumer costs down too or it won't inspire anybody. McDonald's would need a makeover of course, or go out of business.

The only real solution would be depopulation there are at least 4 billion to many of us.

It would be a lot simpler and more humane just to cut our meat consumption by at least half, better by a lot more than that. The depopulation kind of idea always makes me realize that God knows how to deal with these things and since we don't acknowledge Him any more but trust in our own ability to analyze things and solve problems even at the planet level we'll never get it right. But maybe He is working on the problem by inspiring more people to cut back on meat.

We are the last generation that parties like there is no tomorrow, the ones that come after us will know only hunger and suffering because we fucked up their planet.

Here's a thought: Start growing gardens and teaching the next generation to grow gardens. And bring back the God of the Bible.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 456 by frako, posted 03-26-2018 9:41 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by jar, posted 03-26-2018 10:40 AM Faith has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 460 of 505 (830273)
03-26-2018 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by Faith
03-26-2018 10:11 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Faith writes:

Here's a thought: Start growing gardens and teaching the next generation to grow gardens. And bring back the God of the Bible.

You do know that most people don't have yards where they can grow gardens Faith? And you do know that the God of the Bible never fed anyone and allowed famines and caused famines and told folk to prepare for famines instead of the God not causing the famines and the God of the Bible even chased humans out of the Garden?

Have you ever really read the Bible Faith?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Faith, posted 03-26-2018 10:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 29832
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 461 of 505 (830275)
03-26-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by jar
03-26-2018 10:40 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
This is off topic here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2792
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 462 of 505 (830276)
03-26-2018 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by Faith
03-26-2018 10:11 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Here's a thought: Start growing gardens and teaching the next generation to grow gardens. And bring back the God of the Bible.

Sure and remember to teach them how to grow food whitout water, and land. A person needs 0,5 Ha of FERTILE land to grow enough food for himself.( not accounting for loss of fertility, bad weather, pests etc...) The world is currently making due with 0,2 Ha of FERTILE land per person, the rest we make up with fishing the oceans barren grazing, starvation and of course farming land that is not very fertile.

The math just does not add up there are to many people. It's not even a matter of decreasing the population growth anymore, we could have gotten away with that a few decades ago, now we need to murder 4 billion people if we wish that the 4 billion left have a chance at a decent future.

My guess is when the powerful realise that the game is up a highly lethal virus with a very long incubation period, will be released so they can continue to enjoy themselves.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Faith, posted 03-26-2018 10:11 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17739
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 463 of 505 (830287)
03-26-2018 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Faith
03-26-2018 8:43 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Faith writes:

Does it cover the American food industry, especially the meat industry, which according to many of the films I've mentioned on the natural foods thread is the biggest contributor to climate change of all of them.

I posted the document before having time to read it. After taking a look at it, and in answer to your question, two things:

  1. Despite the claims that it is a lay-level report, it is not. Not even close. For example:

    quote:
    In this report, we follow the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) recommendation that the RF [Radiative Force] caused by a forcing agent be evaluated as the net radiative flux change at the tropopause [the boundary between the tropospere and the stratosphere] after stratospheric temperatures have adjusted to a new radiative equilibrium while assuming all other variables (for example, temperatures and cloud cover) are held fixed (Box 8.1 of Myhre et al. 201317 ).

    I didn't just pick out a complex section. The whole document reads like this. The terminology is technical, the focus is technical, it is dense with the technical. This is a horrible document for the layperson.

  2. It spends almost no time on the impact of food production on climate change. There's just this:

    quote:
    Growth rates in the global mean nitrous oxide (N2O) concentration and RF over the industrial era are smaller than for CO2 and methane (Figures 2.4 and 2.5). N2O is emitted in the nitrogen cycle in natural ecosystems and has a variety of anthropogenic sources, including the use of synthetic fertilizers in agriculture, motor vehicle exhaust, and some manufacturing processes. The current global value near 330 ppb reflects steady growth over the industrial era with average increases in recent decades of 0.75 ppb per year (Figure 2.4). Fertilization in global food production is responsible for about 80% of the growth rate. Anthropogenic sources account for approximately 40% of the annual N2O emissions of 17.9 (8.1 to 30.7) TgN. N2O has an atmospheric lifetime of about 120 years and a GWP in the range 265298 (Myhre et al. 2013 Table 8.7). The primary sink of N2O is photochemical destruction in the stratosphere, which produces nitrogen oxides (NOx) that catalytically destroy ozone (e.g., Skiba and Rees 2014 ). Small indirect climate effects, such as the response of stratospheric ozone, are generally not included in the N2O RF.

    That is, fertilizers used in food production are responsible for 80% of the growth rate in N2O (nitrous oxide), which as a greenhouse gas is 298 times worse than carbon dioxide (see Greenhouse Effect of Nitrous Oxide). Cattle feed is created via food production using fertilizers. For example, 60% of US corn production is used as cattle feed (much not of sufficient quality for human consumption).

    The top graph shows the main greenhouse gases over time, CO2 (carbon dioxide), CH4 (methane) and N2O:

    CO2 is the one we have to worry about most because it is the one rising by far the fastest.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Faith, posted 03-26-2018 8:43 AM Faith has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 15400
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 464 of 505 (830289)
03-26-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by Faith
03-26-2018 10:11 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Faith writes:

And bring back the God of the Bible.


The God of the Bible was big on meat. Remember how He rejected Cain's veggie offering? Remember the Tabernacle and its accessories? The altar was a barbecue, not a salad bar.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Faith, posted 03-26-2018 10:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 29832
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 465 of 505 (830304)
03-26-2018 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Percy
03-26-2018 12:21 PM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Fertilizers do sound like a huge part of the problem. CO2 is easy, though: plant plant plant those gardens, everybody plant a tree, or one in a hundred of us plant a tree, over time that would accomplish a lot. Start eating more plant foods and reduce the meat industry and restore the rain forests that were cut down to make room for the animals. Easy as to method, impossible as to amount needed of course.

The animals are shown in these films packed tightly together, standing ankle deep in their own manure, which puts out a huge amount of gasses all by itself, not to mention contributing to the food poisoning outbreaks that require the agribusinesses to load the animals with antibiotics which we end up eating, contributing to the growth of resistant bacteria and so on and so forth. but I guess that's sliding off topic again.


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