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Author Topic:   What to say if you met God/god/Gods/gods
Posts: 2849
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9

Message 106 of 108 (800962)
03-02-2017 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by mike the wiz
03-01-2017 5:23 PM

mike the wiz writes:

If the universe is an accident and there ultimately is no right or wrong objectively speaking, then how can you indict someone with wrongdoing, when that would only be your relative version of it? In other words to refute Fry I need two words; "I disagree".


The problem is that these two words can be used against any and all moral stances. Even those from God.

Those from God simply back up the problem one more step.

"Morality from God is perfect because God know what is ultimately right and wrong objectively speaking."
"How do you know that God knows such a thing and how does God inform you of it?"
"The bible says so, and the bible informs us."
"I disagree."

...and you're right back into the same boat as everyone else.

The only difference is one side thinks they're acting under perfect knowledge - when such a thing is impossible for them to know. While the other side accepts the reality that we are unable to understand perfect knowledge, so we have to make do with what we can understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by mike the wiz, posted 03-01-2017 5:23 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6

Message 107 of 108 (800966)
03-02-2017 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
03-01-2017 4:24 PM

Re: Rationale
Phat writes:

Its not that He needs to use us. H uses us for our benefit. He wants to use us.

If we're the ones doing the doing, we don't need Him to "use" us.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 03-01-2017 4:24 PM Phat has not yet responded

Dr Adequate
Posts: 15482
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9

Message 108 of 108 (800967)
03-02-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
03-02-2017 3:39 AM

Re: Unjust Universe+Just God.
Not sure I follow.

Everyone is naturally bad without exception:

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man." (Mark.7:21-23)

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." (Romans 5:12)

This is true in particular of those whom God has chosen to save:

"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses." (Col. 2:13)

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph. 2:1-5)

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." (Rom. 3:9-12)

"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight." (Col. 1:21 - 22)

The selection of some people for salvation was therefore arbitrary, at God's own good pleasure and not based in any way on choosing the better people over the worse:

"Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began." (2 Tim. 1:9)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Rom. 9:16)

"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4-5)

"For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."" (Rom. 9:11-13)

It is Biblical doctrine, then, that all are wicked and deserve punishment, but that some, no less wicked and no more deserving, shall get eternal infinite happiness instead. The Christian religion is, then, based on the hope that in the afterlife justice will not be done to all people --- specifically, that it will not be done to Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 03-02-2017 3:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

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