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Author Topic:   What to say if you met God/god/Gods/gods
Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 106 of 116 (800962)
03-02-2017 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by mike the wiz
03-01-2017 5:23 PM


mike the wiz writes:

If the universe is an accident and there ultimately is no right or wrong objectively speaking, then how can you indict someone with wrongdoing, when that would only be your relative version of it? In other words to refute Fry I need two words; "I disagree".

Yes.

The problem is that these two words can be used against any and all moral stances. Even those from God.

Those from God simply back up the problem one more step.

"Morality from God is perfect because God know what is ultimately right and wrong objectively speaking."
"How do you know that God knows such a thing and how does God inform you of it?"
"The bible says so, and the bible informs us."
"I disagree."

...and you're right back into the same boat as everyone else.

The only difference is one side thinks they're acting under perfect knowledge - when such a thing is impossible for them to know. While the other side accepts the reality that we are unable to understand perfect knowledge, so we have to make do with what we can understand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by mike the wiz, posted 03-01-2017 5:23 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 04-03-2017 2:15 PM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 107 of 116 (800966)
03-02-2017 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
03-01-2017 4:24 PM


Re: Rationale
Phat writes:

Its not that He needs to use us. H uses us for our benefit. He wants to use us.


If we're the ones doing the doing, we don't need Him to "use" us.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 03-01-2017 4:24 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 04-03-2017 2:16 PM ringo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 108 of 116 (800967)
03-02-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
03-02-2017 3:39 AM


Re: Unjust Universe+Just God.
Not sure I follow.

Everyone is naturally bad without exception:

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man." (Mark.7:21-23)

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." (Romans 5:12)

This is true in particular of those whom God has chosen to save:

"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses." (Col. 2:13)

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph. 2:1-5)

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." (Rom. 3:9-12)

"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight." (Col. 1:21 - 22)

The selection of some people for salvation was therefore arbitrary, at God's own good pleasure and not based in any way on choosing the better people over the worse:

"Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began." (2 Tim. 1:9)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." (Rom. 9:16)

"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4-5)

"For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."" (Rom. 9:11-13)

It is Biblical doctrine, then, that all are wicked and deserve punishment, but that some, no less wicked and no more deserving, shall get eternal infinite happiness instead. The Christian religion is, then, based on the hope that in the afterlife justice will not be done to all people --- specifically, that it will not be done to Christians.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 03-02-2017 3:39 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 04-03-2017 2:12 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9753
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 109 of 116 (803688)
04-03-2017 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Dr Adequate
03-02-2017 10:43 AM


Re: Unjust Universe+Just God.
Everyone is naturally bad without exception:

Was Lucifer naturally "bad" before he fell? We may have to use selected dogma to support or refute this since it is hard to find in the Bible alone.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-02-2017 10:43 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9753
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 110 of 116 (803689)
04-03-2017 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Stile
03-02-2017 10:16 AM


Making Do
Stile writes:

The only difference is one side thinks they're acting under perfect knowledge - when such a thing is impossible for them to know. While the other side accepts the reality that we are unable to understand perfect knowledge, so we have to make do with what we can understand.

Does lack of proof preclude us from having Faith?

Is an intuition measurable?

You have mentioned that you are open to being shown a better way.

How would you respond if you were shown such a way that had no proof?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Stile, posted 03-02-2017 10:16 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Stile, posted 04-05-2017 11:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9753
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 111 of 116 (803690)
04-03-2017 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
03-02-2017 10:42 AM


Re: Rationale
ringo writes:

If we're the ones doing the doing, we don't need Him to "use" us.

Do we "need" Him for anything? How would we know any different if we prefer being the ones doing the doing?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 03-02-2017 10:42 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 04-04-2017 11:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11706
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 112 of 116 (803750)
04-04-2017 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
03-01-2017 3:22 PM


Re: Rationale
God is not meant to be useful for humans.

You sure about that? Finding God has been useful for me. How do you know it wasn't meant to be like that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 03-01-2017 3:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 113 of 116 (803752)
04-04-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
04-03-2017 2:16 PM


Re: Rationale
Phat writes:

Do we "need" Him for anything?


If He is doing something for us and we're not aware that He is the doer, how is that different from it just happening without Him doing it?

Phat writes:

How would we know any different if we prefer being the ones doing the doing?


We don't necessarily "prefer" doing the doing. We HAVE to do the doing because nobody else is doing it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 04-03-2017 2:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(2)
Message 114 of 116 (803855)
04-05-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
04-03-2017 2:15 PM


Re: Making Do
Phat writes:

Does lack of proof preclude us from having Faith?

I don't think so.

Is an intuition measurable?

I don't know.
I haven't heard of a reliable way yet, though.

You have mentioned that you are open to being shown a better way.

How would you respond if you were shown such a way that had no proof?

I do not understand your question.
If I were shown a way... then that "showing" would be the proof.

If there was actually "no proof.." then how would you show it in the first place?

I think that by "showing a way" you're simply using the idea of "claiming a way."

Those two things are fundamentally different.

A claim can be made for anything.
It may be true, it may not.

Showing something can only be done if you can actually do it.
If anything is showed to someone... it must be a part of reality.

For example:

An orphan who doesn't know his parents.
You can show him parents.
But really... you're only showing him your claim that "these are your parents."
In order to actually show him parents... you would have to take a DNA test from him, and the claimed parents, explain how DNA works and how the testing works to him... and then show him the honest results.

Without doing that, you're not really "showing him" parents.
You're simply showing him a claim that "these are your parents."

With that understanding, I hope you can see the inherent oxymoron involved in the question "what if you were shown a way with no proof?"

The answer is: If there's no proof, then no one ever really "show a way" in the first place. They merely showed a claim of a way.

Which has the problem of all claims. It may be true, and it may be false.
This unknown of whether it's true or not is exactly how we know that it wasn't really "showed" to anyone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 04-03-2017 2:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 115 of 116 (811134)
06-05-2017 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
02-06-2015 9:24 AM


Atheists and ********* need to stop excusing their errors
Ha, what an excuse of a whimp.

Fry should have known from the massive amount of evidence that Lord has given.... its FRY's fault for being so deceived, but as per usual the atheists and evolutionists always want to blame and accuse the Lord for their mistakes. They are whimps.

I mean the Holy Spirt whispers in their ears day and night and still they reject the truths spoken.... they see the truths in every waking hour and yet they deny the truths

And go back to excusing themselves..

"You should have given me more evidence."

So the real question is what the Lord of Creation said to this whimpy excusing Fry person.... who wanted more and more evidence even though atheists and evolutionists deny deny deny more evidence and more math and more prophecy, and more truths.

They need to buck up and get real.... and take the responsibility for their actions or lack of actions.

IMHO

David

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2015 9:24 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 116 of 116 (811496)
06-08-2017 7:32 PM


Godly people are AWE STRUCK
To answer the original question, most people in biblical history shut their mouths and fell on their faces when meeting with the Lord or with any of His Angels. They were in total awe and RESPECT, and almost speechless.....

As for the evil gods and devils, people who meet them, usually already agree with them and follow their principles, and so their meeting is much more agreeable.... and pleasant as they conspire to do evil together.

If a godly person is confronted with these evil ones, he or she discerns it immediately from experience and wisdom and is not tricked or seduced, and just blasts the hell out of them with the power of the Lord and HIS WORD.

There .......answer given and mystery solved.

IHS

David

Or study and know thru experience and faith

http://www.davidjayjordan.com/Evilpeople.html

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

    
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