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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 976 of 1053 (782266)
04-21-2016 5:50 PM


The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
So here is a snippet from Geological Survey Professional Paper, Volume 669 (pulled up via a "Tapeats Sandstone England" Google books search)

It talks about these formations "correlating" with certain formations in England. I'm wondering what that term means in this context ... temporally?

https://books.google.com/books?id=uhOoAB52-gIC&pg=PA25&lp...


  
edge
Member
Posts: 3900
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


(3)
Message 977 of 1053 (782268)
04-21-2016 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 974 by PaulK
04-21-2016 5:33 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
This is true. However it is not completely unjustified.

The Tapeats Sandstone, the Potsdam Sandstone, the Saint Peter's Sandstone, and the Sawatch Quartzsite, among otbers are all time-equivalent units. These are all basal Sandstone units related to the first major Paleozoic marine transgression.

What Snelling fails to tell you is that there are discontinuities due to non-deposition (which would mean contemporary land masses) and/or later erosion. He also fails to tell you why this scenario indicates rapid deposition. That is simply another baseless assertion.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 974 by PaulK, posted 04-21-2016 5:33 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 978 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 04-21-2016 6:15 PM edge has responded
 Message 987 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2016 12:56 AM edge has not yet responded
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ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 978 of 1053 (782269)
04-21-2016 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 977 by edge
04-21-2016 5:54 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
Snelling does talk about rapid deposition in the sentence right after what I quoted -- I cut it out because my question was only regarding the range portion of the paragraph.

The entire paragraph follows, including the rapid deposition sentence:

quote:
We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents—even between continents—and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia. Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 977 by edge, posted 04-21-2016 5:54 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25583
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 979 of 1053 (782270)
04-21-2016 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 970 by ThinAirDesigns
04-21-2016 4:41 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
I have also wanted to find information about the full range of the various strata and/or time periods associated with them. A few years ago herebedragons posted THIS, illustrating four time periods in relation to North America. The illustrations have become distorted for some reason.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 984 by edge, posted 04-21-2016 10:04 PM Faith has responded
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ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 980 of 1053 (782271)
04-21-2016 6:46 PM


Here is another statement about 'range' that interests me:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/creation-conference.html

quote:
[Ian] Taylor said that the `White Cliffs of Dover' deposit actually extends from Ireland through England, France, Germany, India, Sumatra and into Australia. This is incontrovertible evidence for a worldwide flood, he said.

Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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edge
Member
Posts: 3900
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 981 of 1053 (782279)
04-21-2016 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 978 by ThinAirDesigns
04-21-2016 6:15 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
Still, rapid deposition does not mean old ages. One could have rapid deposition of one layer ... hundreds of millions of years ago.

This is deception on the part of Snelling..

Also, note that he is switching from the Tapeats to the Coconino in the same paragraph. This is more deception. The Tapeats is a beach sandstone and the Coconino is an eolian sand deposit. And yes, we can tell the difference.


This message is a reply to:
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edge
Member
Posts: 3900
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 982 of 1053 (782283)
04-21-2016 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 980 by ThinAirDesigns
04-21-2016 6:46 PM


More nonsense.

The White Cliffs of Dover were deposited at about the same time as the Cretaceous Seaway in North America. At that time, the oceans were at a higher level covering large amounts of the continents.


This message is a reply to:
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edge
Member
Posts: 3900
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 983 of 1053 (782284)
04-21-2016 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 980 by ThinAirDesigns
04-21-2016 6:46 PM


More nonsense.

The White Cliffs of Dover were deposited at about the same time as the Cretaceous Seaway in North America. At that time, the oceans were at a higher level covering large amounts of the continents. This resulted in large areas shallow seas covering the continental shelves with little input from continental sediments. In Europe and into the Middle East the sediments were starved of terrigenous sediments and developed carbonate banks. In North America, formations such as the Niobrara limestone are the equivalent of the White Cliffs of Dover. However, there were land masses to the west in North America.

It all makes sense if you understand the distribution of rocks in a global conrext.


This message is a reply to:
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edge
Member
Posts: 3900
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 984 of 1053 (782285)
04-21-2016 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 979 by Faith
04-21-2016 6:35 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
Well, considering that YECS do not recognize that these time periods exist, it is no wonder that it is a mystery to them. However, there is little doubt that they exist and that they are associated with major geological changes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 979 by Faith, posted 04-21-2016 6:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2861
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 985 of 1053 (782288)
04-21-2016 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 978 by ThinAirDesigns
04-21-2016 6:15 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
To add to edge's reply, here is a reference about rapid depositation:
quote:
Q1.A5
Polystrate fossils
Broadhurst, F. M., 1964, Some aspects of the paleoecology of
non-marine fauas and rates of sedimentation in the Lancashire coal
measures: American Journal of Science, vol. 262, pp.858-869.

We can tell a lot about a stratum when we examine the rock closely. This article described some of the characteristics of rapidly-deposited sediment, namely the inclusion of larger particles that would fallen out of suspension very much earlier in a case of slower depositation.

I received that reference from a SDAist on CompuServe in the early 90's by which he sought to support his claim of polystrate trees with root systems extending into the coal seams under them. Instead, that article specifically stated that the root systems did not so extend. But it also described how geologists can tell how rapidly sediment had been deposited, which should make it of interest here. I believe that that SDAist ("Seventh Day Adventist") had pulled that citation from something written by Dr. Steve Austin (PhD Geology).

Actually, that SDAist provided me with one of my first realizations of creationists' primary goal for going on-line: to convert us. He was in the habit of copying entire sections of creationist books verbatim (even including the footnote numbers, but without including any of the footnotes). When I had finally worn him down to writing his own messages, he immediately tried to convert me. He even went so far as to as to praise the miracles that SDA's prominent founder, Ellen G. White (uncomfortably close to my ex-wife's name), could perform after she had gone into a trance. I responded with complete honesty that I used to be able to perform the exact same "miracles" when I was still well-practiced in Aikido (Tohei Sensai's school, which emphasizes Ki development) and I never ever had to go into any trance to do it. It was at that instant that he suddenly had very pressing business matters to attend to (he ran a mail-order hobby business) after which he completely disappeared.

A word about Dr. Steve Austin. Yes, his doctorate is legitimate. The Institute for Creation Research (ICR) had paid all his expenses, including living expenses, for him to earn that degree, just so they could have an actual PhD Geology on staff whose degree was legitimate (unlike the ones bought from diploma mills). While he was a student, he wrote several geology articles for creationist publications (eg, the ones I read in Creation Society Research Quarterly), but he used the pseudonym of "Stuart Nevins", near-anagram of his real name (it's missing an "e" and has an extra "r"). In one of his articles I read, he repeated the false idea of absolutely gradual building of the strata (ie, take a system of strata representing some millions of years, so "that must mean that each layer was built up by this miniscule fraction of an inch each and every year"); even a first-semester geology student should have known better and here he was already a graduate student -- either he had absolutely no understanding of geology or he was lying and, since I'm certain he isn't that stupid, he must have been knowingly lying. And indeed, now that he knows as a PhD what can create invalid radiometric dates, he has been using that knowledge to selectively collect samples that will give invalid dates. Creationist is as creationist does.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 978 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 04-21-2016 6:15 PM ThinAirDesigns has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2861
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 986 of 1053 (782289)
04-21-2016 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 979 by Faith
04-21-2016 6:35 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
Circa 1990, there was a young-earth creationist fossil shop in a local shopping mall. Even though he was a YEC, his fossils were displayed in jewelry cases with the commonly accepted (AKA "old earth") dates; only the prominent display of many posters from ICR books and the creationist books for sale at the cash register betrayed his YEC beliefs (though he also sold a book by Hugh Ross, an OEC, but then that's capitalism for you).

However, here is something that you could benefit by regardless of your immediate rejection of anything old-earth. The vast majority of geological observations of age are of relative ages. We can plainly see that A happened before D and that B happened before D but after A, etc, etc, etc. It is when we then can find some igneous intrusions that we can tie some fixed ages to particular layers, along with a realization of how long it would take certain formations to form.

Now, even though you reject the radiometric dating of those tie points (used by a geology book I own, though I don't know how widely the term is used) or of how long it would take for certain formations to form, there is still the relative ages of the layers that you could use.

I would assume that you can accept the relative ages of the various layers. That could even be something that you and geologists could agree on, the relative ages of the layers. True, geologists then go on to establish absolute ages, which you reject. OK, but at least you still have the relative ages.


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PaulK
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Posts: 12863
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 987 of 1053 (782291)
04-22-2016 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 977 by edge
04-21-2016 5:54 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
So if I understand correctly we have similar rocks deposited at the same time (with some leeway, no doubt) rather than a single formation. In some cases the similarities could be quite extensive - possibly even derived from the same source of sediment? but nevertheless there are reasons to consider them distinct.

Another point to consider, especially with older formations, is continental drift. Places which are far apart now, may not have been so when the material was originally deposited.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25583
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 988 of 1053 (782298)
04-22-2016 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 984 by edge
04-21-2016 10:04 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
Well, considering that YECS do not recognize that these time periods exist, it is no wonder that it is a mystery to them. However, there is little doubt that they exist and that they are associated with major geological changes.

Who said it is a mystery? I find those illustrations to be very interesting and useful. The only problem is that they don't show what particular sediment occurs where. It might be all one sediment or it might not. It may not be terribly important, but it's something it would be nice to know. I know that in the Grand Canyon the Cambrian is Tapeats sandstone, the Mississippian is redwall limestone, the Permian is Kaibab limestone and so on, and that all of these cover a number of states at least. It would be nice to have charts that show both the time period and the sedimentary rock associated with it all over the world.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25583
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 989 of 1053 (782300)
04-22-2016 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 985 by dwise1
04-21-2016 11:20 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
In one of his articles I read, he repeated the false idea of absolutely gradual building of the strata (ie, take a system of strata representing some millions of years, so "that must mean that each layer was built up by this miniscule fraction of an inch each and every year"); even a first-semester geology student should have known better and here he was already a graduate student --

But this incremental buildup idea is what one just naturally gets from the usual presentation of the formation of the strata. In fact if there is an accepted understanding of rapid deposition for all or some of them I've never encountered it except as rejoinders in the debate here. You say Austin should have known better as a geology graduate student but clearly he didn't get that information as a student. There is no reason to accuse him of lying. He didn't get that information as a student.

But it's also quite an odd idea to think that there could have been a period of very rapid deposition that happened to trap and fossilize some particular creatures, and that is all that is preserved of an entire time period of hundreds of millions of years. If that occurred once or twice it might not be too odd, but so many of the time periods are characterized by a very particular sediment with very particular fossils. ALL Tapeats sandstone, ALL Redwall limestone etc etc. And they often have such nice neat razor-straight contacts too.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by dwise1, posted 04-21-2016 11:20 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3784
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 990 of 1053 (782313)
04-22-2016 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 974 by PaulK
04-21-2016 5:33 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
The little investigation that I have done suggests that they are probably including other formations, such as the St Peter Sandstone.

There was a long discussion on the St. Peter over at Talk Rational. There was a YEC map (IIRC from Snelling) that tremendously exaggerated the extent of it. But it still wasn't even close to spanning continents. I'll see if I have time to dig it up a little later.


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