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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1036 of 1053 (783423)
05-05-2016 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1035 by ThinAirDesigns
05-05-2016 11:14 AM


Re: CRSQ article sought
Any excuse for a trip to Lookout Mountain is a good one.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1035 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-05-2016 11:14 AM ThinAirDesigns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1037 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-05-2016 11:31 AM jar has responded

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 1037 of 1053 (783424)
05-05-2016 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1036 by jar
05-05-2016 11:20 AM


Re: CRSQ article sought
I live right below Covenant at the bottom of the mountain and run the 5 miles up to the College almost every day.

JB


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by jar, posted 05-05-2016 11:20 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by jar, posted 05-05-2016 11:35 AM ThinAirDesigns has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1038 of 1053 (783425)
05-05-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1037 by ThinAirDesigns
05-05-2016 11:31 AM


Re: CRSQ article sought
There used to be a great little breakfast place in Lookout Mountain just a few doors down from the old grocery store that was on the corner. Not sure it's there anymore.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-05-2016 11:31 AM ThinAirDesigns has not yet responded

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(3)
Message 1039 of 1053 (784110)
05-12-2016 10:03 AM


Facebook series on Dendro
I belong to a FB group called "SDA Fight Club" where Seventh Day Adventists and Ex SDAs mingle and discuss topics that are typically controversial between the two groups (non-SDAs are allowed, but the topics tend to be SDA related).

With knowledge I've learned here on EVC (thanks everyone) and other places, I've been for a while now putting up a fair bit of material from the science world working towards educating members on both the pretend SDA science and the actual science science.

Following are the links to a 4 part series I just completed on reference dendrochronologies. So many here have helped me on this topic that I thought I would share. Also I know if I got something wrong this crew will correct me.

Thanks

Dendrochronology Part 1

Dendrochronology Part 2

Dendrochronology Part 3

Dendrochronology Part 4

Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.


  
ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 1040 of 1053 (784540)
05-19-2016 10:14 AM


Argonne paper sought
Anyone have the relevant original paper lying around and would be willing to share?

quote:
Argonne National Laboratories in the US combined wood, water and acidic clay, and heated in a sealed container (with no added pressure) at 150 C for 28 days, and obtained high–grade black coal. R. Hayatsu, et al., Organic Geochemistry, 6:463471, 1984.

Can find paper behind paywall but again my local library can't touch it.

Thanks

JB

(Oh, and yes I know that the above description is not what I'll find in the paper -- that's a YEC description of what happened)


Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by JonF, posted 05-19-2016 1:08 PM ThinAirDesigns has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3901
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1041 of 1053 (784549)
05-19-2016 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1040 by ThinAirDesigns
05-19-2016 10:14 AM


Re: Argonne paper sought
From fkuechmann@earthlink.net Sat Mar 17 23:51:53 2001
Path: newscene.com!newscene!newscene!novia!newsfeed.stanford.edu!ediacara.org!there.is.no.cabal
From: fkuechmann@earthlink.net (F.C. Kuechmann)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: As the Cretin Sqirms
Date: 17 Mar 2001 23:51:53 -0500
Organization: Brotherhood of Fratricidal Anarchists
Lines: 220
Approved: robomod@ediacara.org
Message-ID: <1eqflo9.sg4erz5e4gamN%fkuechmann@earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: darwin.ediacara.org
User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.6
X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:51:44 PST
Xref: newscene.com talk.origins:840548

Cretin Comedy: As the Cretin Sqirms

by F.C. Kuechmann

"...accepting a billions-of-years time-span for creation ...
undermines the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Creator of
the world .... it turns the whole logic of the Gospel upside
down, by putting the effects of the Curse before the Fall.
Death, thorns, cancer, suffering and bloodshed millions
of years before sin must be accepted if the fossils were
laid down before people were created. Such thinking
twists the Bible into foolish self-contradiction, because
it would put death, the last enemy into a creation which
God calls very good." -- Carl Wieland

Cretins...er, creationists...sometimes display an almost childish delight while belaboring any perceived or imagined contradiction, inconsistency or incompleteness in "evolutionist" publications (1). At the same time the YECs studiously ignore their own inconsistencies, contradictions and outright falsehoods.

When cornered despite their best efforts at evasion the Creation Ex Nihilo response is commonly to grab the fig leaf that it is a "family magazine" rather than a technical journal. The philosophy appears to be that it is permissible to mislead and deceive those sheep too stupid or lacking requisite baclground knowledge to comprehend that they're being taken for fools.

Well-known YEC [and AIG CEO] Carl Wieland parades a wide array of dishonest cretin techniques in his article titled "The earth: how old does it look?" in *Creation Ex Nihilo* 23(1):8-13, December 2000 - February 2001 and featured, like much of Carl's drivel, on the AIG web site.

The article is essentially yet another rehash of common YEC "evidences" for a young earth [with much of its material lifted almost verbatim from an earlier Wieland masterpiece]. -- all of which have been repeatedly discredited by the practicioners of genuine science [as opposed to Wieland's undisguised religion evidenced by the above indentd passage -- evolution is wrong because it puts the punishment (death and disease) before the crime (Adam's sin)].

Of primary interest here is item 4a in the good doctor's trite list of discredited young earth "evidence" -- Coal formation.

Argonne National Laboratories have shown that heating wood
(lignin, its major component), water and acidic clay at
150*C (rather cool geologically) for 4 to 36 weeks, in a
sealed quartz tube with no added pressure, forms
high-grade black coal.4

Compare the above to the text and Footnote 9 in Wieland's earlier petite opus titled "The Lost Squadron" [*Creation ex nihilo* (Vol 19 #3: 10-14, Jun-Aug 1997) ]--

The original article text referencing the footnote says

'Millions of years' are casually tossed around so often
that we unconsciously perceive all natural changes as
taking long timespans. That is why many are 'amazed' to
hear of facts like 180 metres (600 feet) of layered
sedimentary rock built up in months after the Mt. St
Helens May 18, 1980 eruption.7 Or when hearing of real
precious opal formed in months,8 or coal from simple
heating of wood in 28 days.9

And the footnote itself originally read

Argonne National Laboratories in the US combined wood,
water and acidic clay, and heated in a sealed container
(with no added pressure) at 150 C for 28 days, and
obtained high-grade black coal.

The text on the AIG web site has been changed to read "in mere months" in place of "in 28 days" and the footnote has been expanded to include an interesting array of fig leaves. Here is the current fooitnote 9 --

These researchers at Argonne National Laboratories in the
US combined wood, water and acidic clay, and heated in a
sealed container (without oxygen, and no added pressure)
at 150 oC for 2-8 months. [Ed. Note: Or to be more precise
than was necessary in a family magazine, the reaction
included the major wood stiffener, lignin; other reactions
contained the other major wood component, cellulose. So
the principle is the same. They are hydrothermal
reactions, hence the explanation in the magazine that
water was an ingredient -- although obviously no
scientific abstract would bother stating it -- and an
essential one. See E. Pennisi, "Water, water, everywhere",
*Science News* 143:121-5, 20 Feb. 1993]

In some of the longer runs (still far, far less than
millions or even thousands of years!) obtained material
which had the infrared spectra like those of "high rank
coal".

In all cases the information is attributed to the article "Artificial coalification study: Preparation and characterization of synthetic Macerals" by Ryoichi Hayatsu, et. al., in *Organic Geochemistry*, Vol. 6, pp 463-471, 1984.

The contradictions and inconsistencies amongst the three passages are obvious. "28 days" is not the same as "4 to 36 weeks" or "mere months", and "wood" isn't "lignin" any more than "water" is "hydrogen". By Wieland's standards we can deem his "without oxygen" statement to be false, since each water molecule contains as atom of oxygen, therefore water is the same as oxygen, and Carl insists that water is an essential part of the reaction.

The [Hayatsu] article, in fact, describes testing with several materials including lignin and lignin/cellulose [the major components of wood], and heating durations ranging from 30 minutes to 8 months. None of the intervals was close to the 28 day figure given by Wieland - the closest was 60 minutes, 2nd closest 2 months. None of the tests used water - most involved mixtures of 4 g activated clay and 2 g lignin, both finely powdered, in sealed glass tubes which were either evacuated or the air replaced with nitrogen.

They obtained not "high-grade black coal" [anthracite], but "an insoluble material resembling low rank coals" for the shorter intervals, and a material somewhat resembling slightly higher grade coal [vitrinites] for longer times.

Wieland seems to be referring to "lignin" as "wood" [primarily lignin and cellulose combined] and justifying it via the fig leaf that cellulose was used in some of the short-term reference experiments that demonstrated no coalification catalized by acidic clay. This fig leaf, together with its "family magazine" companion, is displayed in the revised footnote 9 --

...to be more precise than was necessary in a family
magazine, the reaction included the major wood stiffener,
lignin; other reactions contained the other major wood
component, cellulose. So the principle is the same.

In fact cellulose, if present, prevents the coalification from taking place. So the principle is *not* the same

In the traditional "buried peat bog" hypothesis of coal formation denounced by YECs as "unbiblical", the cellulose is consumed by anerobic bacteria before coalification. The YEC "Noachian deluge" scenario offers no explanation of the fate of the cellulose, and YECs like Wieland seem unaware that one is required.

Wieland's source for the "4 to 36 weeks" figure is as mysterious as his source for "28 days". The longest test period descrijbed in Ryoichi Hayatsu's article is given as 8 months. If we allow 4 weeks [28 days] per month, 8 months is 32 weeks. If we consider a month to be 30 days instead of 28, 8 months is still only about 34 weeks.

The "water" assertion is justified by this fig leaf in the revised footnote 9 --

They are hydrothermal reactions, hence the explanation in
the magazine that water was an ingredient -- although
obviously no scientific abstract would bother stating it
-- and an essential one. See E. Pennisi, "Water, water,
everywhere", *Science News* 143:121-5, 20 Feb. 1993

In other words, since virually everything on earth contains at least small amounts of water, it is accurate to list water as a major ingredient of the experiment. The original footnote 9 reads

Argonne National Laboratories in the US combined wood,
water and acidic clay...

Which at the very least implies that more than residual trace amounts of water were employed. And the statement that

water was an ingredient -- although obviously no
scientific abstract would bother stating it

is an evasion worthy of an award. The abstract doesn't bother with it, nor does the article itself. I think Herr Wieland is attempting a snowjob via minutae.2

The "high grade black coal" of the original "Lost Squadron" article has become, in the revised version, something quite different --

In some of the longer runs (still far, far less than
millions or even thousands of years!) obtained material
which had the infrared spectra like those of "high rank
coals".

Here, in a fashion all too typical of YECs who attempt to warp legitimate research into supporting their biblical literalist obsessions, Carl ignores the substantial difference between "high grade black coal" and a soft brownish material with an infrared spectrum resembling that of high grade coal that was actually obtained at Argonne. And in the later article "The earth: how old does it look?" in *Creation Ex Nihilo*, the "high grade black coal" nonsense is repeated. What a hoot this guy is!

Given the gross misrepresentation of the Argonne research, it is reasonable to conclude that famous Australian YEC Dr Carl Wieland MD has either never read and/or understood the article he has now cited at least twice, or he is simply pulling numbers and facts out of his hat. His "no scientific abstract" statement suggests that is all he's seen -- an abstract -- and he's infering or hallucinating the erroneous and misleading details. In any case he has strengthened his position as the YEC court jester and given the rest of us a few additional laughs.

1 In their stated preference for "infallible scripture" over "fallible science" they tie themselves to the superstitions of Middle Eastern desert nomads of three millenia past.

2 Perhaps the good doctor can tell us what happens to water in a vacuum [or, have you ever had freeze-dried coffee?]

Edited by Admin, : Add indent codes around the excerpted sections.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1040 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-19-2016 10:14 AM ThinAirDesigns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1042 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-19-2016 3:58 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 1042 of 1053 (784562)
05-19-2016 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1041 by JonF
05-19-2016 1:08 PM


Re: Argonne paper sought
Thanks JonF

Yes -- I don't doubt the shenanigans.

Still hoping I can find the original paper in question.

JB


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1041 by JonF, posted 05-19-2016 1:08 PM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1043 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2016 11:49 PM ThinAirDesigns has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9816
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1043 of 1053 (784595)
05-19-2016 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1042 by ThinAirDesigns
05-19-2016 3:58 PM


Re: Argonne paper sought
You might want to consider visiting a local university library if there is one in your area. The public and private universities nearest my area are all open to the public, and I believe most of them allow you to check out materials and use their computers if you pay a nominal annual fee. (for example UNC-Chapel Hill charges about 25 dollars per year)

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1042 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-19-2016 3:58 PM ThinAirDesigns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1044 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-20-2016 8:02 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 1044 of 1053 (784612)
05-20-2016 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1043 by NoNukes
05-19-2016 11:49 PM


Re: Argonne paper sought
I'll have to do that. Our local GA public library has very limited access to online science stuff. I haven't been there but across the border in Chattanooga we there is a University of Tenn affiliate. I'll try them.

Thanks

JB


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1043 by NoNukes, posted 05-19-2016 11:49 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1045 by jar, posted 05-20-2016 8:40 AM ThinAirDesigns has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1045 of 1053 (784615)
05-20-2016 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1044 by ThinAirDesigns
05-20-2016 8:02 AM


Re: Argonne paper sought
There is one thing still missing from your discussions and that is an indication that the participants really want to learn the truth. Access to that paper is available online for about $35.00. IIWY I would suggest that those who really want to find out if what SDA claims as true really is true then they each chip in $5.00 to get the paper and see for themselves. They need to actually make more than just a token commitment; they need to invest in the truth.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1044 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-20-2016 8:02 AM ThinAirDesigns has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3901
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 1046 of 1053 (784616)
05-20-2016 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1045 by jar
05-20-2016 8:40 AM


Re: Argonne paper sought
MIT has the journal and will email a PDF (not OCR'd) for $20. Journal Articles & Conference Papers Order Form, Pricing and turnaround times. Should someone take this route I'll be glad to OCR it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by jar, posted 05-20-2016 8:40 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1047 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-20-2016 9:39 AM JonF has responded

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 1047 of 1053 (784623)
05-20-2016 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1046 by JonF
05-20-2016 8:53 AM


Re: Argonne paper sought
Thanks JohF. If I can't get it from a University Library, I may do just that.

JB


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by JonF, posted 05-20-2016 8:53 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1048 by JonF, posted 05-20-2016 12:47 PM ThinAirDesigns has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3901
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 1048 of 1053 (784635)
05-20-2016 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1047 by ThinAirDesigns
05-20-2016 9:39 AM


Re: Argonne paper sought
One of your local libraries may be able to get an interlibrary loan from MIT or someone who has it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1047 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-20-2016 9:39 AM ThinAirDesigns has not yet responded

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(2)
Message 1049 of 1053 (784841)
05-24-2016 10:41 AM


Series on Chris Johnson
A 5 part takedown series that I put together addressing the carbon dating page from Chris Johnson's website:
Creation Liberty.

This is posted on a open SDA Facebook group where members of my family hang out. I'm actually making some good progress with several of them through pieces like this and my dendrochronology series I posted earlier.

Again thanks to so many people here who have and are helping educated me and provide me with resources.

"Things that are not perfect can still be perfectly useful."

" Part #1

" Part #2

" Part #3

" Part #4

" Part #5


Replies to this message:
 Message 1050 by kbertsche, posted 05-24-2016 8:26 PM ThinAirDesigns has responded

  
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1372
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 1050 of 1053 (784860)
05-24-2016 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1049 by ThinAirDesigns
05-24-2016 10:41 AM


Re: Series on Chris Johnson
Amazing. This guy references NIST for length standards, and claims that there are no such standards for radiocarbon. But the OX-1 standard is available directly from NIST! https://www-s.nist.gov/srmors/view_detail.cfm?srm=4990c
(TAD, I would be tempted to make this error much more obvious in your rebuttal.)

For anomalous dates from shells, I would be tempted to reference Aardsma's explanation of this while he was still at ICR. An explanation from another YEC might have more impact with your audience: https://www.icr.org/article/293

Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

Edited by kbertsche, : I'm adding comments as I read the series.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1049 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 05-24-2016 10:41 AM ThinAirDesigns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1051 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2016 10:53 PM kbertsche has responded
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