Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8805 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-13-2017 12:04 AM
304 online now:
DrJones*, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), Phat (AdminPhat) (3 members, 301 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,060 Year: 28,666/21,208 Month: 732/1,847 Week: 107/475 Day: 0/17 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
3Next
Author Topic:   Net Neutrality --- For Once, Everyone Wins
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 16 of 44 (751102)
02-27-2015 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by RAZD
02-26-2015 8:23 PM


Re: satellite anywhere internet/phone
The future of internet has to be satellite (or solar drone dirigibles) replacing cell towers and cables

ALL US service is crap for speed and cost

What about Google Fiber?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 02-26-2015 8:23 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 02-27-2015 11:06 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 17 of 44 (751111)
02-27-2015 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by New Cat's Eye
02-27-2015 10:10 AM


Re: satellite anywhere internet/phone
Not going to have much market penetration for a while to come. Also, it doesn't seem likely it will make it to any rural locations. Also, we get back to the old no competition problem.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-27-2015 10:10 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 18 of 44 (751114)
02-27-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jon
02-26-2015 7:08 PM


Re: Pay per Ad Internet
Maybe. But what about power companies? Water? These local monopolies have relatively stable prices.

Utility monopolies are subject to very restrictive government oversight. They have to ask permission to raise prices, and the granting of those increases is very political. The price increases must be justified as do capital expenditures.

Cable companies are not regulated to nearly that extent, and yet their semi-monopoly positions are protected by legislation every bit as protective as the utilities. In many locations it is impossible, for example, for a municipality to develop a internet coop that completes with ISPs. Some ISPs have notoriously bad services and high prices, yet their is little competition and no impetus to change.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 02-26-2015 7:08 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 02-27-2015 11:57 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 44 (751116)
02-27-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by NoNukes
02-27-2015 11:45 AM


Re: Pay per Ad Internet
All the more reason the Internet companies will start raping their customers and blaming the government.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 02-27-2015 11:45 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 02-27-2015 2:32 PM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 20 of 44 (751126)
02-27-2015 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
02-27-2015 11:57 AM


Re: Pay per Ad Internet
All the more reason the Internet companies will start raping their customers and blaming the government.

Internet companies are already treating customers badly. What exactly is your point?


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 02-27-2015 11:57 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Jon, posted 02-27-2015 8:05 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 44 (751149)
02-27-2015 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by NoNukes
02-27-2015 2:32 PM


Re: Pay per Ad Internet
Internet companies are already treating customers badly. What exactly is your point?

My point is that they will now treat them even worse...


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 02-27-2015 2:32 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by NoNukes, posted 02-28-2015 1:16 AM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 22 of 44 (751152)
02-28-2015 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jon
02-27-2015 8:05 PM


Re: Pay per Ad Internet
My point is that they will now treat them even worse...

Explain your reasoning, please.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Jon, posted 02-27-2015 8:05 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 02-28-2015 9:53 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 23 of 44 (751154)
02-28-2015 3:46 AM


The ISPs wanted to create a tiered network to prioritise the traffic they delivered to their customers. If all traffic carries the same priority, all is urgent and they have to build networks to cope. They wanted to be able to balance traffic based on percieved value so that their network investment is reduced. A telephone call could get a higher priority than a Youtube video about a dress for example.

This would have meant that they could have charged for setting these priorities - both the content providers and the customer. Heavy use content providers whose business relies on really good streaming - such as Netflix - opposed this for obvious reasons. Network neutrality means that the ISPs have to build networks to cope with whatever is thrown at them. They argue that this is unfair and want a contribution from those businesses that they say are parasitic on them by sending huge amounts of data that they don't have to pay for.

The only way out at the moment is for ISPs to change their as much as you can eat models and start charging more for consumption of bandwidth by the end user.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 24 of 44 (751160)
02-28-2015 8:12 AM


The other side
The ISPs already have a tiered throughput network for data to/from their customers. Some of us have basic bandwidth services while some of us have higher speed services for which we pay extra. Services like Netflix have built their own ISP systems (Tier 1 networks) directly connected into the net through peering agreements to service the needs of their customers.

The routers that are the Internet interconnect the ISPs (including Netflix, Amazon, other providers, several Universities and government ISPs, etc.) and dynamically exchange lists of routing addresses so the data packets are able to flow through the network, around choke points, to the their destination most efficiently regardless of who owns or operates any specific router.

Internet service is a demand service, meaning the end users, not the content providers, determine the use, when and where. The net continues to grow because we end-users continue to demand greater access to providers services. What is missing from the ISPs business model is being able to charge the content provider extra for faster throughput services. They want an additional tiered system by which the large telecom ISPs, which are the direct connections to the end-user homes and businesses, can charge the content provider (even if that is a fellow tier 1 peer) to provide greater or lesser throughput thus opening up additional revenue streams and leverage (extortion) against content providers. Content providers unwilling to pay the upper scale would have their throughput throttled, regardless of the ISPs actual capabilities, thus injuring the providers end-user customer, us. Those that will pay the extortion will need to raise the pricing of their content to us end-users.

The telecom ISPs are under demand of their end-user customers, us, to provide faster more reliable services. That requires ongoing infrastructure investment, investments the telecoms are going to have to make anyway if they want to stay competitive. If they can extort revenues from the content providers then they can make the infrastructure investments and have more profit left for shareholder equity and executive bonuses. If they cannot, then the pressure to increase pricing on their end-user customers is greater, which they cannot do in those major areas (the majority of their customer base) where they face considerable competition. They would still have to make the infrastructure investment but would have to settle for less of an increase in shareholder equity and executive bonuses.

Net Neutrality goes a long way toward allowing the richness of web content to continue to flourish unimpeded by the greed of the giant telecom ISPs while helping to keep end-user costs subject to competition among ISPs as well as competition among content providers. Allowing the extortion of content providers by the telecom ISPs forces additional costs onto the end user that are not necessary for either the ISPs or the provider's operations.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 25 of 44 (751162)
02-28-2015 8:46 AM


We should say too, that net neutrality also means that ISPs are not allowed to 'throttle' or bar traffic on their networks simply because they don't like it. I doubt anyone knows how that will work yet, but it's a big technical issue as all ISPs do some form of traffic management to ensure the smooth running of their networks. Business networks routinely throttle Youtube and similar services so that email, telephony and other more commercial traffic isn't compromised.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by AZPaul3, posted 02-28-2015 9:47 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 26 of 44 (751163)
02-28-2015 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tangle
02-28-2015 8:46 AM


I doubt anyone knows how that will work yet, but it's a big technical issue as all ISPs do some form of traffic management to ensure the smooth running of their networks.

I'm not sure the regulatory agencies will cite ISPs for taking steps to ensure smooth functioning of their networks and services to their commercial base so long as those steps are not shown to be concerted malicious attempts to restrain service to/from providers and users. However, as we have seen so often, the telecoms can be very creative in their technical/marketing schemes to just barely skim by regulatory requirements.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2015 8:46 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 44 (751164)
02-28-2015 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by NoNukes
02-28-2015 1:16 AM


Re: Pay per Ad Internet
I did in my previous posts.

Just like employers used ACA to excuse cutting hours or hiring people only at part-time, the big, bad ISPs will start sending out letters with their bills explaining that 'due to the new Net Neutrality rules' they are going to have to start cutting some services or charging more.

Stuff that would have previously gotten people pissed off at them, they can now pass on to the government for blame.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by NoNukes, posted 02-28-2015 1:16 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 02-28-2015 11:54 AM Jon has responded
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-28-2015 12:04 PM Jon has responded
 Message 30 by Theodoric, posted 02-28-2015 2:27 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 28 of 44 (751165)
02-28-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
02-28-2015 9:53 AM


Re: Pay per Ad Internet
Just like employers used ACA to excuse cutting hours or hiring people only at part-time, the big, bad ISPs will start sending out letters with their bills explaining that 'due to the new Net Neutrality rules' they are going to have to start cutting some services or charging more.

For the most part, employers who cut hours and blamed it on ACA were full of crap. I don't blame ACA for those actions. Temps and part-time are nothing new, anyway.

You are not providing an argument or an explanation. You are just asserting stuff. If the ISPs are allowed to tier content, what is to stop them from charging customers more for accessing higher tier content? The service providers have already demonstrated that they do not require government excuses to pass on high costs and poor service to customers.

What I am asking is an explanation of why customers should expect worse from ISPs under net neutrality than without net neutrality. Why isn't the answer to bad service and high prices increasing competition rather than giving ISPs more leverage to over charge?


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 02-28-2015 9:53 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 02-28-2015 3:05 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 29 of 44 (751167)
02-28-2015 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
02-28-2015 9:53 AM


Re: Pay per Ad Internet
Just like employers used ACA to excuse cutting hours or hiring people only at part-time, the big, bad ISPs will start sending out letters with their bills explaining that 'due to the new Net Neutrality rules' they are going to have to start cutting some services or charging more.

That's still better than what would happen if we didn't have net neutrality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 02-28-2015 9:53 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 02-28-2015 3:07 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 30 of 44 (751183)
02-28-2015 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
02-28-2015 9:53 AM


Re: Pay per Ad Internet
Just like employers used ACA to excuse cutting hours or hiring people only at part-time

Do you have evidence that a lot of this happened in response to ACA?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 02-28-2015 9:53 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply

    
Prev1
2
3Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017