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Author Topic:   Origin of the Flood Layers
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 376 of 409 (753593)
03-20-2015 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by JonF
03-20-2015 1:52 PM


HOWEVER, as I analyze even your lightened version I still think that's a depression the clasts came out of. That IS the physical edge of a depression, not just the edge of the shadow that was originally there.

It's the edge of the shadow that was originally there. It's the boundary between the un-lightened and lightened version.

No it certainly is not, it's a physical edge. The edge even has a slight bevel to it, and the inner border is way too sharp to be a shadow. Also that shadow is just way too dark, showing no features at all of the supposed surface that would have to be there. Yet even the vertical edge the clasts are stuck in, which is in shadow itself, is so light it would reflect light enough to pick up features in that dark shadow even in the original photo, if it really was a shadow on the same level, but that is not the case. All this is so obvious I see I can't trust anything you say about a photo image.

Then tyou go on to outline in green a part of the higher surface on the bottom left along with the lower shadow in the depression, claiming they are on the same surface. Sheesh, this is ridiculous.

ABE: Your marked photo for reference:

]

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by JonF, posted 03-20-2015 1:52 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by JonF, posted 03-21-2015 8:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 377 of 409 (753594)
03-20-2015 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by Faith
03-20-2015 9:49 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
Faith writes:

I explained the heat and pressure back in that lengthy description I gave of the scenario I have in mind that Percy suggested you should take as my model.

As for the question about the laying down of different sediments let's not change the subject, OK?

We looked at your model and found that it was totally refuted by all of the evidence.

You did not explain either the heat or pressure and I'm not at all sure you have a clue what an explanation would be.

If you wish to show there was some pressure pushing up you need to provide the evidence of that pressure.

If you wish to claim magma is the source of the heat then you must explain why there is no sign of general heating from magma and why the magma is found as intrusions which show the Vishnu Schist existed before the magma.

And the different layers are NOT changing the subject, both the Vishnu Schist and the Tapeats Sandstone can be shown to exist.

But don't worry, once you provide an explanation of how those two layers could be created in 6000 years we will move on to the next issue.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 9:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 10:11 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 378 of 409 (753595)
03-20-2015 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by jar
03-20-2015 10:08 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
The Vishnu does not have to have existed AS SCHIST before the magma intrusions, just as rock rubble the magma plus weight from above then metamorphosed into schist.

You refuted nothing. In your dreams.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 10:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 10:45 PM Faith has responded
 Message 382 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 10:55 PM Faith has responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 3969
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 379 of 409 (753598)
03-20-2015 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
03-20-2015 9:47 PM


One of the many difficulties of trying to have a discussion with you is that you NEVER read in context. Heat and pressure does it for me without the factor of great age, about which you had just asked me. Does that clarify or do I need to copy out every quote, even the most recent? I guess I could do that but since this is only one of many difficulties I don't expect it to be worth the time anyway.

Have you been a complainer all of your life? All I wanted some clarification.

OK, but didn't you just respond to JonF by suggesting that the material in the depression / shadow is not schist?

I'm pretty sure that it's not just air. Whatever it is, it appears to have a laminated fabric not related to the original schist. However, I think it was derived from the schist. What do you think it is?

And please make something else clear: You called the clasts "boulders" at one time, ...

I probably misspoke. I had been looking at some images on line where there were some fairly large boulders in a sandstone above an unconformity. My error, however, such things do exist.

... and referred to that little ridge in the Tapeats as a "bedding plane."

Yes, there is a bedding plane in the image.

Did you see Percy's post since then that showed the area of this photo to cover about twenty square inches?

Actually, I pointed this our well before Percy did. I mentioned that the larger image with the geologist was from the exact location of the original picture that you posted.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 9:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 10:55 PM edge has responded
 Message 399 by JonF, posted 03-21-2015 8:57 AM edge has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 380 of 409 (753599)
03-20-2015 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Faith
03-20-2015 10:11 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
Faith writes:

The Vishnu does not have to have existed AS SCHIST before the magma intrusions, just as rock rubble the magma plus weight from above then metamorphosed into schist.

You refuted nothing. In your dreams.

Stop and think Faith.

Schist is not made from rock rubble. It is made from mudstone or shale and that requires weathering other rocks to produce the fine material that becomes shale or mudstone.

So your explanation needs to show how the original material was produced.

The magma was in the form of intrusions an so it did have to be schist before the intrusion. Otherwise the material surrounding the intrusion would be something other than schist.

If you wish to apply pressure from above you need to provide the model, method, mechanism, process or procedure that produces the material and deposits it above.

How long will it take to produce the mudstone or shale, to bury it deep enough to create temperatures and pressures needed to convert them into schist.

So let's talk about the weight from above.

We know the Vishnu Schist was definitely schist before the Tapeats Sandstone was laid down.

So walk us through what could have compressed the shale or mudstone heating and converting it into schist since the Tapeats Layer was not there?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 10:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 10:58 PM jar has responded
 Message 384 by Adminnemooseus, posted 03-20-2015 11:01 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 381 of 409 (753601)
03-20-2015 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by edge
03-20-2015 10:38 PM


One of the many difficulties of trying to have a discussion with you is that you NEVER read in context. Heat and pressure does it for me without the factor of great age, about which you had just asked me. Does that clarify or do I need to copy out every quote, even the most recent? I guess I could do that but since this is only one of many difficulties I don't expect it to be worth the time anyway.

Have you been a complainer all of your life?

Not at all. I never had much to complain about until I came to EvC.

All I wanted some clarification.

But why would you need it with the question right there that I was answering?

OK, but didn't you just respond to JonF by suggesting that the material in the depression / shadow is not schist?

I'm pretty sure that it's not just air. Whatever it is, it appears to have a laminated fabric not related to the original schist. However, I think it was derived from the schist. What do you think it is?

I think it is schist. The lightening of the image made the whole area of that dark shadow reddish and not a whole lot easier to read than the original. No idea where you get the "laminated" idea.

And please make something else clear: You called the clasts "boulders" at one time, ...

I probably misspoke. I had been looking at some images on line where there were some fairly large boulders in a sandstone above an unconformity. My error, however, such things do exist.

Yes, in fact there is a boulder of quartzite about fifteen feet in diameter embedded in the Tapeats elsewhere in the canyon, above the unconformity, that clearly broke off the Shinumo quartzite of the Supergroup, and that's what the term suggested to me when you said it.

... and referred to that little ridge in the Tapeats as a "bedding plane."

Yes, there is a bedding plane in the image.

That "bedding plane" is about half an inch deep and follows the curved border area between the Tapeats and the Vishnu. You really call that a bedding plane?

Did you see Percy's post since then that showed the area of this photo to cover about twenty square inches?

Actually, I pointed this our well before Percy did. I mentioned that the larger image with the geologist was from the exact location of the original picture that you posted

I misread you then. I thought you were merely saying that picture was taken in the vicinity of the other.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 10:38 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 11:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 3969
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 382 of 409 (753602)
03-20-2015 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Faith
03-20-2015 10:11 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
The Vishnu does not have to have existed AS SCHIST before the magma intrusions, just as rock rubble the magma plus weight from above then metamorphosed into schist.

Well, it doesn't have to, I suppose, but it probably did. First of all, the development of a schist (with a platy foliation) is dynamothermal, meaning that there was deformation along with heating. If the intrusion caused the schist development, then there should be some geometric relationship of the intrusion to the orientation of the foliation. That does not appear to be the case.

As to the burial origin of the foliation, if that is due to the Paleozoic section being deposited, then the foliation should be closer to vertical (ETA: this should read 'horizontal'). In fact, IIRC, there are some folds in the schist, which would suggest some kind of lateral compression.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 10:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 11:01 PM edge has not yet responded
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 11:55 PM edge has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 383 of 409 (753603)
03-20-2015 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by jar
03-20-2015 10:45 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
The magma was in the form of intrusions an so it did have to be schist before the intrusion. Otherwise the material surrounding the intrusion would be something other than schist.

No it wouldn't. The magma intrusion baked whatever it was into schist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 10:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 11:05 PM Faith has responded
 Message 394 by edge, posted 03-21-2015 12:08 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3826
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 384 of 409 (753604)
03-20-2015 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by jar
03-20-2015 10:45 PM


Wrong topic for this
First of all, I find Jar's message to have significant flaws, and I suggest that Faith abstain from replying to it.

Secondly, considerations of the Great Unconformity should be at the Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it topic.

I (non-admin mode) am going to try to get a message posted to the unconformity topic soon.

Perhaps this topic needs to be shut down, as being a disaster area.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 10:45 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 385 of 409 (753605)
03-20-2015 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by edge
03-20-2015 10:55 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
Well, it doesn't have to, I suppose, but it probably did. First of all, the development of a schist (with a platy foliation) is dynamothermal, meaning that there was deformation along with heating. If the intrusion caused the schist development, then there should be some geometric relationship of the intrusion to the orientation of the foliation. That does not appear to be the case.

As to the burial origin of the foliation, if that is due to the Paleozoic section being deposited, then the foliation should be closer to vertical. In fact, IIRC, there are some folds in the schist, which would suggest some kind of lateral compression.

I wonder if you would be so kind as to translate these paragraphs into simple English for us mentally challenged YECs? I would really like to have some idea what you are talking about.

{My non-admin counterpart has taken this message to Message 199. Please continue things unconformity there. - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Message in red.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 10:55 PM edge has not yet responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 3969
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 386 of 409 (753606)
03-20-2015 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Faith
03-20-2015 10:55 PM


I think it is schist. The lightening of the image made the whole area of that dark shadow reddish and not a whole lot easier to read than the original. No idea where you get the "laminated" idea.

I am concerned only with the foliation in that material and it is completely different from the underlying schist. I'm pretty sure that it is schist weathered to some kind of clay or soil and then compacted, or it is transported clay minerals derived from the schist that are now deformed around the base of the clasts. It is also visible where there are no clasts.

The true color is actually dark red, being indistinguishable from a dark shadow. I'll try to work on an annotated image, but there's a lot of basketball on this evening and I'm hungry.

Yes, in fact there is a boulder of quartzite about fifteen feet in diameter embedded in the Tapeats elsewhere in the canyon, above the unconformity, that clearly broke off the Shinumo quartzite of the Supergroup, and that's what the term suggested to me when you said it.

Yes, more evidence of erosion during the Great Unconformity time.

That "bedding plane" is about half an inch deep and follows the curved border area between the Tapeats and the Vishnu. You really call that a bedding plane?

Yes, there is probably some draping, but as you know images can be deceiving.

I misread you then. I thought you were merely saying that picture was taken in the vicinity of the other.

I believe I said 'exactly'. Maybe not...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 10:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 387 of 409 (753607)
03-20-2015 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
03-20-2015 10:58 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
Faith writes:

No it wouldn't. The magma intrusion baked whatever it was into schist.

That is just silly Faith, really silly and again, all of the evidence says 'Taint so!'.

If the magma baked whatever it was into schist then you would see some relationship to a common heat source for all of the schist, but like the shot that missed the target, that evidence is simply not there.

And you still have not provided the model, mechanism, method, process or procedure to produce the original mudstone or shale or the materials in your what-ifs that would have provided the pressure needed to convert the mudstone or shale into schist.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 10:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 11:10 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 388 of 409 (753608)
03-20-2015 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by jar
03-20-2015 11:05 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
Even geologist edge didn't say it was completely out of the question that the magma could have caused the schist, though he gave some technical reasons why he doesn't think that is what happened. Your posture of ridicule is out of place. And it's the COMBINATION of the heat from the magma PLUS the enormous weight of the three-mile stack of strata above that I proposed were the two factors that turned the original rock into schist.

"Common source of heat for all the schist?" I believe that is plentiful wherever there is schist in the canyon because granite is usually associated with it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by jar, posted 03-20-2015 11:05 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 11:19 PM Faith has responded
 Message 400 by jar, posted 03-21-2015 9:11 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 3969
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 389 of 409 (753609)
03-20-2015 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by Faith
03-20-2015 11:10 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
Even geologist edge didn't say it was completely out of the question that the magma could have caused the schist, though he gave some technical reasons why he doesn't think that is what happened.

You read me wrong, Faith. What I'm saying is that there is no evidence to support your statement.

Now, I could imagine some exception to the case such as local effects or maybe an intrusion that we presently know nothing about; but these are completely unsupported. When I combine that with the schistosity formation, your point goes out the window. And when I combine all that with your misplaced confidence, it actually becomes a ridiculous notion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 11:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by Faith, posted 03-20-2015 11:26 PM edge has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 390 of 409 (753610)
03-20-2015 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by edge
03-20-2015 11:19 PM


Re: how do you make heat and pressure?
OK, fine, I will hold my theory alone then that magma intruding into rock rubble could transform it into schist, especially with the added pressure of the enormous weight of three miles of strata above it. However it happened, though, the mere presence of granite in the schist shows the presence of enough heat from magma in the general vicinity to fry the stuff.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 11:19 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by edge, posted 03-20-2015 11:55 PM Faith has responded

    
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