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Author Topic:   Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 1186 of 1939 (756170)
04-15-2015 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1184 by Faith
04-15-2015 6:48 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
Faith writes:
And all this pitiful stuff is presented against thousands of square miles of flat horizontal slabs of rock that may cross entire continents at a depth of miles.
You do realize that those thousands of square miles of flat horizontal slabs can't actually be flat and horizontal don't you? Imagine how far you could see.
JB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1184 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 6:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1187 of 1939 (756171)
04-15-2015 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1185 by Admin
04-15-2015 6:50 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
In the context of the deposition of the strata he means fluid such as water and that's the only context I'm talking about. Original Horizontality IS the topic.

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 Message 1185 by Admin, posted 04-15-2015 6:50 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1189 by Admin, posted 04-15-2015 7:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 1188 of 1939 (756174)
04-15-2015 7:16 PM


Faith, several times later I've ask a series of perfectly simple A, B, C questions of you in an attempt to understand your position as to the formation of sedimentary strata. You go to extreme gymnastics to avoid answering. I'm going to try another round.
Scenario:
I take an typical household sized fish tank / aquarium.
I measure out enough fine silt to cover the bottom of the tank to a depth of one inch (I do not place it in the tank yet)
I place a small dome shaped rock, 3 inches in diameter and 2 inches tall in the bottom center of the tank
I fill the tank with water.
I mix in the silt while stirring to make sure it is suspended in the water.
I leave it undisturbed until the silt has settled and the water is clear enough that we can easily view the floor of the tank.
Do you believe:
A: that that 1" layer of silt that has settled to the bottom will be draped at all over that rock?
or
B: that the silt will the be butted up to the rock in a perfectly horizontal plane all the way around the rock?
In other words, will we see the top of the dome shaped rock free of sediment or will the entire rock be hidden by the sediment?
Thanks
JB

Replies to this message:
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 Message 1194 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 10:59 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1189 of 1939 (756175)
04-15-2015 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1187 by Faith
04-15-2015 6:54 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
Faith writes:
In the context of the deposition of the strata he means fluid such as water and that's the only context I'm talking about.
But Steno didn't say "fluid such as water," someone at Berkeley said that, and it still only means that water is one type of fluid. We've provided you Steno's own words using "fluid" in both gaseous and aqueous contexts, and we've provided you actual definitions. You have provided nothing but your insistence that you are right. It is time to move on.
Original Horizontality IS the topic.
It isn't the main topic, but it is a side-point on which I was hoping to achieve some clarity before moving back to the main topic. I was hoping to see some explanation from you for how sedimentation upon a rock protruding above a surface would not produce deeper sediments around the rock's perimeter.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1187 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 6:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 1190 of 1939 (756177)
04-15-2015 7:49 PM


30 posts since this morning! And presumably still getting nowhere (I haven't bothered to even read them).
I'm abandoning this thread as a total waste of time.
Bah!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(3)
Message 1191 of 1939 (756185)
04-15-2015 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1188 by ThinAirDesigns
04-15-2015 7:16 PM


Faith has a small tank that could be used for such an experiment. She apparently never used it for an angle of repose experiment because she didn't think the sand I also sent was suitable.
We are indeed all wasting time here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1188 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 04-15-2015 7:16 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1193 by herebedragons, posted 04-15-2015 10:09 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 1192 of 1939 (756186)
04-15-2015 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1182 by Faith
04-15-2015 6:41 PM


Re: I am awake, Faith
Oh Ok! I get what your saying now. Sediment can deposit non-horizontally as long as the final, top surface is flat. Ok so we are back to this same image again.
We suppose that the upper surface of the Tapeats is horizontal and flat, but the bedding inside the layer does not have to be flat and horizontal (like the Coconino Sandstone). So then we can agree that the surface of the unconformity is not flat in this image and that it is not because of deformation after the Tapeats sediment was deposited.
Whew! we are finally getting somewhere. Surface of the Great Unconformity NOT FLAT in the area this drawing represents!!!
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1182 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 6:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 1193 of 1939 (756187)
04-15-2015 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1191 by Coragyps
04-15-2015 9:52 PM


You really did send her a fish tank and sand to do and angle of repose experiment?? I thought it was just a joke.
But there is no need to do an experiment because some guy a couple hundred years ago made a statement about horizontality. That's good enough.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1191 by Coragyps, posted 04-15-2015 9:52 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1194 of 1939 (756188)
04-15-2015 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1188 by ThinAirDesigns
04-15-2015 7:16 PM


In other words, will we see the top of the dome shaped rock free of sediment or will the entire rock be hidden by the sediment?
A small amount will settle on the top of the rock, a smaller amount or possibly nothing at all, would stick to the sides, and the rest would form a horizontally surfaced layer on the bottom of the tank.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1188 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 04-15-2015 7:16 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1207 by Admin, posted 04-16-2015 9:35 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1208 by Admin, posted 04-16-2015 10:15 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1195 of 1939 (756189)
04-15-2015 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1186 by ThinAirDesigns
04-15-2015 6:52 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
They aren't flat and horizontal where tectonic or other disturbance has deformed them, pushed them up into mountains or twisted them, or eroded away chunks here and there and so on, after they were all deposited horizontally.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1196 of 1939 (756190)
04-15-2015 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1181 by Faith
04-15-2015 6:34 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
From BerkeleyEdu:
Assuming that all rocks and minerals had once been fluid, Steno reasoned that rock strata and similar deposits were formed when particles in a fluid such as water fell to the bottom. This process would leave horizontal layers. Thus Steno's principle of original horizontality states that rock layers form in the horizontal position, and any deviations from this position are due to the rocks being disturbed later.
Yes, this was Steno's understanding 350 years ago.
Care to join us in this century with the knowledge that we have gained since then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1181 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 6:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1198 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 11:38 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1197 of 1939 (756191)
04-15-2015 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1156 by edge
04-15-2015 10:01 AM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
So, there are no rocks forming to day? How do you know this? You live on land and think that is all that's going on in the earth?
I know it from the evidence you all have posted here. Minuscule sedimentation beds compared to what produced The Strata; claims that a hill of gravel is the basis for a layer like those found in The Strata, a teeny tiny little hill of gravel; or The Mississippi River Delta with some layered sediments, about a thousandth of the horizontal extent of most of The Strata on the N. American continent; and arguments in the past that it's all continuing at the bottom of the ocean, despite a billion or so years of supposed accumulation on land, all said with a straight face in defiance of probability.
The apparent observed fact/ actual evidence is that sedimentation and layering on the scale of The Strata long since ceased.
And I know why that is even though you seem not to,.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1156 by edge, posted 04-15-2015 10:01 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1199 by edge, posted 04-15-2015 11:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1198 of 1939 (756192)
04-15-2015 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1196 by edge
04-15-2015 11:13 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
From BerkeleyEdu:
Assuming that all rocks and minerals had once been fluid, Steno reasoned that rock strata and similar deposits were formed when particles in a fluid such as water fell to the bottom. This process would leave horizontal layers. Thus Steno's principle of original horizontality states that rock layers form in the horizontal position, and any deviations from this position are due to the rocks being disturbed later.
Yes, this was Steno's understanding 350 years ago.
Care to join us in this century with the knowledge that we have gained since then?
With all due respect, I hope, what you are calling knowledge looks more like a denial of reality on this particular subject, as I keep saying. Steno certainly didn't have it all right, but he did have original horizontality right. IMHO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1196 by edge, posted 04-15-2015 11:13 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1200 by edge, posted 04-15-2015 11:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1199 of 1939 (756193)
04-15-2015 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1197 by Faith
04-15-2015 11:30 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
I know it from the evidence you all have posted here. Minuscule sedimentation beds compared to what produced The Strata;
Please provide a reference to 'The Strata'.
... claims that a hill of gravel is the basis for a layer like those found in The Strata, a teeny tiny little hill of gravel; ...
Gravel deposits are never continental, even in the geological record. What are you talking about?
... or The Mississippi River Delta with some layered sediments, about a thousandth of the horizontal extent of most of The Strata on the N. American continent; ...
Ummm, most of the NA continent is above sea level, why would it be accumulating continental-scale sedimentary deposits?
... and arguments in the past that it's all continuing at the bottom of the ocean, despite a billion or so years of supposed accumulation on land, all said with a straight face in defiance of probability.
Gibberish. Are you saying that no sediments are accumulating on the bottom of the ocean? Who says there is a billion years of sediment on the ocean floor?
As usual, you are making no sense. Please try again.
The apparent observed fact/ actual evidence is that sedimentation and layering on the scale of The Strata long since ceased.
As expected, Faith.
And I know why that is even though you seem not to,.
Then perhaps you could enlighten us.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1197 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 11:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 1206 by Admin, posted 04-16-2015 9:10 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1200 of 1939 (756194)
04-15-2015 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1198 by Faith
04-15-2015 11:38 PM


Re: STENO'S PRINCIPLES OF STRATIGRAPHY: ORIGINAL HORIZONTALITY, ETC
With all due respect, ...
Heh, I seriously doubt that.
I hope, what you are calling knowledge looks more like a denial of reality on this particular subject, as I keep saying.
Yes, it appears that a hope is all you've got.
Steno certainly didn't have it all right, but he did have original horizontality right. IMHO.
According to whom?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1198 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 11:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
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