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Author Topic:   Open-minded Skepticism
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1763
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 16 of 85 (756648)
04-24-2015 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
04-07-2015 4:54 PM


Re: Glad you agree now
Straggler asks:

What happens if we put the question of whether your model is itself valid, through your little model?

Ahah! recursive meta-skepticism!

Turtles all the way down.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 04-07-2015 4:54 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10192
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 17 of 85 (756650)
04-24-2015 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by xongsmith
04-24-2015 12:25 PM


Re: Glad you agree now
Are you suggesting that RAZ's little model is something more than an opinion despite not meeting his own criteria for qualifying as such?

Special pleading....?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by xongsmith, posted 04-24-2015 12:25 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3427
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 18 of 85 (756728)
04-25-2015 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Straggler
04-24-2015 12:45 PM


Re: Glad you agree now
Are you suggesting that RAZ's little model is something more than an opinion despite not meeting his own criteria for qualifying as such?

No. He's suggesting there is a pretty neat joke to draw from your observation.

Special pleading....?

No. Turtles.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Straggler, posted 04-24-2015 12:45 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12912
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 19 of 85 (756792)
04-27-2015 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
04-07-2015 4:54 PM


Re: Glad you agree now
Straggler writes:

What happens if we put the question of whether your model is itself valid, through your little model?


Knowledge isn't a house of cards with an identifiable foundation. It's a geodesic sphere: every piece of validated objective empirical evidence depends on another piece of validated objective empirical evidence. The overall system is only "valid" because it's internally self-consistent. It doesn't rest on anything external.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 04-07-2015 4:54 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 04-27-2015 6:18 PM ringo has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10192
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 20 of 85 (756821)
04-27-2015 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
04-27-2015 12:55 PM


Re: Glad you agree now
All sorts of things are internally self consistent but still largely worthless. And the idea that a useful theory of something as complex as knowledge can be expressed in a 4 step flow chart is evidently simplistic drivel.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 04-27-2015 12:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 12912
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 21 of 85 (756827)
04-28-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Straggler
04-27-2015 6:18 PM


Re: Glad you agree now
Straggler writes:

All sorts of things are internally self consistent but still largely worthless.


The point is that they're not internally worthless - and sometimes internal is all we have.
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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 85 (759080)
06-08-2015 4:47 PM


Skepticism is a good thing !!!
Really ... be a skeptic, as long as there is no concrete proof of the subject. In the face of absolute proof, skepticism = "Mary, Mary, quite contrary!"

Since the site is supposed to be about evolution versus creation ... I pose a question. What is the purpose of "God"?
Are we all put on this Earth to prove ourselves worthy to be ... God's friend? Only those who meet his criteria get to sit at his table? Is this the purpose?
I am skeptical.
I believe the purpose of "God" is to give people purpose. Period. Man created "God" so that he sees himself as more than just another animal in the evolutionary chain. Most people cannot conceive the fact that, when the chemical/electrical processes of the brain stop, so do you.
My skepticism fades ... body dies, brain ceases to function ... you cease to exist.

"God" is a creation of man to avoid that conclusion.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 06-09-2015 4:28 PM mikechell has responded
 Message 32 by 1.61803, posted 06-10-2015 2:56 PM mikechell has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3016
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 23 of 85 (759095)
06-08-2015 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by subbie
04-03-2015 4:38 PM


Well, yes.

There is the skepticism of the global warming deniers. There is the skepticism of the anti-evolution group. .. or any group that promotes conspiracy theories..they are skeptical of any evidence that does not meet their preconceived notions.


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 Message 3 by subbie, posted 04-03-2015 4:38 PM subbie has responded

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18251
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 24 of 85 (759190)
06-09-2015 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by mikechell
06-08-2015 4:47 PM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
Hi mikechell and welcome to the fray.

Really ... be a skeptic, as long as there is no concrete proof of the subject. In the face of absolute proof, skepticism = "Mary, Mary, quite contrary!"

However, being skeptical of everything, taken to extremes, leaves you with no reason to investigate new things. Thus you need a balance with open-mindedness ... or to put it another way, you need to be skeptical of the skeptic reaction\position as well, and be able to look at the matter from different angles.

Enjoy

... as you are new here, some posting tips:

type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:

quotes are easy

and you can type [qs=RAZD]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:

RAZD writes:

quotes are easy

or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:

quote:
quotes are easy

also check out (help) links on any formatting questions when in the reply window.

For other formatting tips see Posting Tips
For a quick overview see EvC Forum Primer
If you have problems with replies see Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by mikechell, posted 06-08-2015 4:47 PM mikechell has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by mikechell, posted 06-09-2015 5:12 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 26 by MrHambre, posted 06-10-2015 8:28 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 25 of 85 (759193)
06-09-2015 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
06-09-2015 4:28 PM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
However, being skeptical of everything, taken to extremes, leaves you with no reason to investigate new things.

I thought being skeptical of ideas or theories IS being open minded. If you take everything at face value, THEN you don't investigate options.

Anyway, thank you for the quotation help. I just asked about that on another thread.

And thanks for the welcome.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 06-09-2015 4:28 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 26 of 85 (759249)
06-10-2015 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
06-09-2015 4:28 PM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
RAZD writes:

you need to be skeptical of the skeptic reaction\position as well, and be able to look at the matter from different angles.

That's a good point. I believe (on nothing but anecdotal evidence) that no one is as objective and skeptical as he thinks he is. We prefer to think that cognitive biases are things that only affect other people's thinking, but we're just as susceptible as anyone else to believing whatever source tells us what we want to hear.

What we believe affects how we define facts and evidence, not the other way around.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 06-09-2015 4:28 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by mikechell, posted 06-10-2015 9:05 AM MrHambre has responded

    
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 85 (759253)
06-10-2015 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by MrHambre
06-10-2015 8:28 AM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
What we believe affects how we define facts and evidence, not the other way around.

So, as long as you believe the rock is soft, like a nerf ball, it won't hurt you when it hits you in the head???

The cat's alive !!


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by MrHambre, posted 06-10-2015 8:28 AM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by MrHambre, posted 06-10-2015 9:24 AM mikechell has responded
 Message 29 by RAZD, posted 06-10-2015 10:29 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 28 of 85 (759258)
06-10-2015 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by mikechell
06-10-2015 9:05 AM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
mikechell writes:

So, as long as you believe the rock is soft, like a nerf ball, it won't hurt you when it hits you in the head???

The cat's alive !!


I prefer to believe everyone here is interested in civil dialogue, mike, but in your case my skepticism is starting to get the better of me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mikechell, posted 06-10-2015 9:05 AM mikechell has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by mikechell, posted 06-10-2015 2:29 PM MrHambre has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18251
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 29 of 85 (759262)
06-10-2015 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by mikechell
06-10-2015 9:05 AM


Between a rock and a hard head
So, as long as you believe the rock is soft, like a nerf ball, ...

There are rocks that float.

But based on the evidence of past experiences with rocks we can have a certain degree of expectations that -- all things being equal -- that those experiences will be reflected in the present.

However, we could also be observing a never seen before object that looks like a rock ...

... it won't hurt you when it hits you in the head???

You can't be sure until tested.

The cat's alive !!

There is a degree of uncertainty in any observation.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mikechell, posted 06-10-2015 9:05 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 85 (759286)
06-10-2015 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by MrHambre
06-10-2015 9:24 AM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
So, as long as you believe the rock is soft, like a nerf ball, it won't hurt you when it hits you in the head???

I prefer to believe everyone here is interested in civil dialogue, mike, but in your case my skepticism is starting to get the better of me.

I wasn't intending to be "uncivil" ... nor was I saying I'd throw a rock at you. I just used that as an example to disagree with the statement,

What we believe affects how we define facts and evidence, not the other way around.

Facts are concrete ... what you believe does not change the facts. Circumstantial evidence might be interpreted incorrectly ... factual evidence cannot, no matter what you believe.
Facts and evidence of facts should change how one believes, if previous beliefs were proven wrong.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by MrHambre, posted 06-10-2015 9:24 AM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by MrHambre, posted 06-10-2015 2:55 PM mikechell has responded
 Message 41 by Omnivorous, posted 06-10-2015 6:45 PM mikechell has not yet responded

  
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