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Author Topic:   Open-minded Skepticism
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 85 (759373)
06-10-2015 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by mikechell
06-10-2015 8:03 PM


Re: Okay ... we're cool!
Fact requires observable cause and effect.

And how do we figure out what causes produce what effects?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by mikechell, posted 06-10-2015 8:03 PM mikechell has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5652
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 47 of 85 (759375)
06-10-2015 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by mikechell
06-10-2015 8:03 PM


Facts and theories
Fact requires physical proof of existence. Fact requires observable cause and effect.

I disagree about the cause and effect--explaining facts is the role of hypotheses and theories.

From something I did a long time ago:

Observation: any information collected with the senses.

Data: Individual measurements; facts, figures, pieces of information, statistics, either historical or derived by calculation, experimentation, surveys, etc.; evidence from which conclusions can be inferred.

Fact: when an observation is confirmed repeatedly and by many independent and competent observers, it can become a fact.

And as explained by Heinlein many years ago,

Piling up facts is not science--science is facts-and-theories. Facts alone have limited use and lack meaning; a valid theory organizes them into far greater usefulness.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by mikechell, posted 06-10-2015 8:03 PM mikechell has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by MrHambre, posted 06-10-2015 10:13 PM Coyote has responded
 Message 50 by mikechell, posted 06-11-2015 12:45 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 14 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 48 of 85 (759383)
06-10-2015 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Coyote
06-10-2015 8:37 PM


Re: Facts and theories
Coyote writes:

I disagree about the cause and effect--explaining facts is the role of hypotheses and theories.


Let's not play dueling oversimplifications, though. It's one thing to describe the methodology of empirical inquiry properly, but defining science as an objective process of Baconian induction from unorganized observations is for schoolkids. The way we approach and interpret facts, and the way we define our knowledge and its limitations, are laden with cultural and personal baggage. If we don't acknowledge that science is a human endeavor with a socially embedded history, we're really not talking about the entire matter.

Edited by MrHambre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Coyote, posted 06-10-2015 8:37 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Coyote, posted 06-11-2015 12:39 AM MrHambre has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5652
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 49 of 85 (759389)
06-11-2015 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by MrHambre
06-10-2015 10:13 PM


Re: Facts and theories
Well and good.

I'm willing to keep an open mind, but not open to just any nonsense blowing in the wind.

That's where you get "airheads."


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by MrHambre, posted 06-10-2015 10:13 PM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by MrHambre, posted 06-11-2015 6:53 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 85 (759390)
06-11-2015 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Coyote
06-10-2015 8:37 PM


Re: Facts and theories
Fact requires physical proof of existence. Fact requires observable cause and effect.

I disagree about the cause and effect--explaining facts is the role of hypotheses and theories.

Fact: when an observation is confirmed repeatedly and by many independent and competent observers, it can become a fact.

Your own definition of "fact" is that cause and effect must be repeatedly observable.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Coyote, posted 06-10-2015 8:37 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Jon, posted 06-11-2015 6:20 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 85 (759410)
06-11-2015 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by mikechell
06-11-2015 12:45 AM


Re: Facts and theories
Your own definition of "fact" is that cause and effect must be repeatedly observable.

Coyote's definition of fact has nothing to do with cause and effect.

We can observe that the sun rises in the east without any reference to the possible causes or effects of this event.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by mikechell, posted 06-11-2015 12:45 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 85 (759411)
06-11-2015 6:42 AM


Okay ... I'll give up.
You're right ... I was mistaken.
Facts mean nothing.
Observation is worthless.
Your beliefs win and nothing in the world is definite fact.

Off I go into my own world, you can keep this one.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by 1.61803, posted 06-11-2015 10:07 AM mikechell has not yet responded
 Message 55 by Coyote, posted 06-11-2015 10:45 AM mikechell has responded
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 06-11-2015 11:51 AM mikechell has not yet responded
 Message 57 by Omnivorous, posted 06-11-2015 1:04 PM mikechell has not yet responded

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 14 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 53 of 85 (759412)
06-11-2015 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Coyote
06-11-2015 12:39 AM


Re: Facts and theories
Coyote writes:

I'm willing to keep an open mind, but not open to just any nonsense blowing in the wind.


That's good to know.

Just out of curiosity, what in anything I posted seems nonsensical to you? I'm just wondering whether your intrepid anti-nonsense stance was articulated for my benefit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Coyote, posted 06-11-2015 12:39 AM Coyote has not yet responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2672
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 54 of 85 (759422)
06-11-2015 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by mikechell
06-11-2015 6:42 AM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
Hi mikechell,

We here a EvC would argue over any and everything regardless of what the subject matter.

I once saw a thread several pages long over what the word superstition meant. (not kidding)

Pedantry and sarcasm with a smattering of provocation abound, however once you get a flavor of the various forumites you'll see it is just a bunch of argumentative over educated ol' buzzards waiting for fresh meat. Just kidding. ha ha.

Welcome to the fray, it's all in fun.
P.S. I have learned a tremendous amount here from the various forum members here. My mind has been opened about a vast array of subjects.

Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

Edited by 1.61803, : *Added postscript


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by mikechell, posted 06-11-2015 6:42 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5652
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 55 of 85 (759424)
06-11-2015 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by mikechell
06-11-2015 6:42 AM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
You're right ... I was mistaken.
Facts mean nothing.
Observation is worthless.
Your beliefs win and nothing in the world is definite fact.

You seem to be deliberately misstating what I have said.

None of your response bears any relation to what was in my posts.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by mikechell, posted 06-11-2015 6:42 AM mikechell has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by mikechell, posted 06-11-2015 2:49 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 56 of 85 (759434)
06-11-2015 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by mikechell
06-11-2015 6:42 AM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
mikechell writes:

Off I go into my own world, you can keep this one.


That is the bottom line: we are each in a world of our own. We can only communicate about the areas where our perceptions happen to coincide.

Observation is only worth what we can agree on.

Facts mean only what we agree they mean. Nothing indeed is "definite fact", only agreed fact.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by mikechell, posted 06-11-2015 6:42 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(3)
Message 57 of 85 (759446)
06-11-2015 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by mikechell
06-11-2015 6:42 AM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
Nobody wants your surrender, Mike. We just want to challenge your ideas. The more vigorously you defend them, the better.

When a poster gets a bunch of challenging posts, we call it a dog pile: anyone here any length of time has enjoyed that disheartening experience.

Fresh perspectives are not just welcome here, they're vitally important.

Don't go away mad. Don't go away at all.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by mikechell, posted 06-11-2015 6:42 AM mikechell has not yet responded

    
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 85 (759457)
06-11-2015 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Coyote
06-11-2015 10:45 AM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
You seem to be deliberately misstating what I have said.

YOU seem to believe I was talking to you and your statements.

You're observational skills might need a little ... honing.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Coyote, posted 06-11-2015 10:45 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by MrHambre, posted 06-11-2015 3:00 PM mikechell has responded

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 14 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 59 of 85 (759459)
06-11-2015 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by mikechell
06-11-2015 2:49 PM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
mikechell writes:

You're observational skills might need a little ... honing.


Yours might too, if you thought you observed anyone claiming that Facts mean nothing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by mikechell, posted 06-11-2015 2:49 PM mikechell has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by mikechell, posted 06-11-2015 4:11 PM MrHambre has responded

    
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 85 (759464)
06-11-2015 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by MrHambre
06-11-2015 3:00 PM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
If facts are tainted by my belief, then my observation that facts mean nothing is no less "real" than any other observation.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by MrHambre, posted 06-11-2015 3:00 PM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by MrHambre, posted 06-11-2015 4:24 PM mikechell has responded

  
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