Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,816 Year: 3,073/9,624 Month: 918/1,588 Week: 101/223 Day: 12/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Discontinuing research about ID
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 393 (755131)
04-04-2015 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dubreuil
04-04-2015 2:58 PM


Re: Present the Argument here
The paper is not one of the typical intelligent design papers that can be summarised with a few sentences. The objective empirical evidences are presented on 42 pages and this empirical argument can not be shortened.
If you cannot defend your idea with an 'elevator speech' perhaps you have less than jack diddly squat. What would you tell a publisher if he offered you a couple of minutes to persuade him to take on your work?

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Dubreuil, posted 04-04-2015 2:58 PM Dubreuil has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 393 (755472)
04-08-2015 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by New Cat's Eye
04-08-2015 12:35 PM


Hiding behind a smokescreen of "you're just not smart enough to understand what I'm saying" is only going to cause more people to reject your work.
Lol! Like an excuse is actually needed to reject numerology out of hand. How about "Life's too short..."
The tone of this discussion ought to seem very familiar to another fairly recent "paper presentation" by a rejected author. Remember that guy who was expecting an honorary degree based on work he could not get published?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-08-2015 12:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 393 (755940)
04-13-2015 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Dubreuil
04-13-2015 2:51 PM


I already had a conversation about this with RAZD. He had the maths knowledge to understand the answers and ask questions. Unfortunately I haven't enough time to explain it to someone completely new in maths and information science in "plain English".
Interestingly enough, I am finding the discussions with RAZD and Dr Adequate very easy to follow. That ease suggests that your excuses that your math is too far above the rabble to even be explained to them in lay terms is incorrect.
You are right about one thing. There is not much point in doing research on ID. Maybe you could take a crack at Bible codes?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Dubreuil, posted 04-13-2015 2:51 PM Dubreuil has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 182 of 393 (756343)
04-18-2015 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Dubreuil
04-18-2015 10:04 AM


Earth shattering ideas not fit for the public..
I wanted to follow up on something Cat Sci posted. I fully expect that you will ignore this message, but ..
Cat Sci writes:
That you can identify these patterns and calculate the odds of them existing, says nothing about how and why they exist.
In fact, a more complicated pattern identifying process coupled with convoluted the rules are for labeling items in the pattern has two effects:
1) the use of complicated pattern rules increases the probability of identifying a pattern. You can actually increase the number of alternatives for identifying a particular pattern until you insure that the pattern is matched.
2) increasesing the complexity of the identified pattern thereby resulting in an increasingly low probability in the calculations of the type you describe.
In short the more BS your process is, the more likely that your calculated 'probabilities' are going to conceal the BS. And some of your rules are doozies.
The individual items of the pattern are not independent. Some items cannot happen unless other items have happened. And none of the items in a TV show are random. Before I even pick up the paper, my first question would be whether or not the calculated probabilities are meaningful and correct based on these considerations.
Here is another view.
If in fact, there is something of value in the paper, it is not just of interest to mathematicians. The ideas here are potentially world transforming. In short they suggest the existence of a logical and inescapable argument that Jesus is Lord and that special creation is real. And as the author of the paper, you claim to have no time to translate this earth shattering, world transforming idea into English for mass consumption.
Just how reasonable is that anyway?

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Dubreuil, posted 04-18-2015 10:04 AM Dubreuil has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 393 (756363)
04-18-2015 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Dubreuil
04-18-2015 6:54 PM


For example? There is no appearance that can't happen until an other appearance has happened, for example.
No, but a disappearance must be preceded by an appearance. And people in a TV story rarely appear without some purpose even if it's just getting killed by the alien threat. So the fact of an appearance increases the probability that some other things will occur like "becomes negatively affected" prior to the occurrence of the corresponding disappearance. Perhaps what I meant was not obvious, but why did you pick out a stupid straw man to dismiss in lieu of trying to understand.
To understand a paper about a theory you mostly have to read the paper.
I am questioning the paper's methods. I can do that by referring to descriptions of the methods. I've explained my criticisms. You cannot seem to work up much to dismiss them. Are you suggesting that my comments about probability in general are in error?
I already spend some time to explain it here.
Not really. I don't have the credentials that Dr. Adequate possesses, but I can do a credible job of working my way through a probability analysis. I'm trying to work up a reason to bother with your paper. A short convincing presentation that you've found 'good news for modern man' might help.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Dubreuil, posted 04-18-2015 6:54 PM Dubreuil has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 210 of 393 (756492)
04-21-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by New Cat's Eye
04-20-2015 10:46 PM


To try to pass that off as some kind of scientific argument for ID is either incredibly ignorant, or deviously dishonest.
Hmmm
quote:
devious
showing a skillful use of underhanded tactics to achieve goals.
I would not call a paper that has only fooled one poster 'devious'. But I cannot overlook the powerful alliteration thing you've got going. Might I suggest 'devilishly' in place of 'devious'?
Edited by NoNukes, : Add word to definition.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-20-2015 10:46 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 221 of 393 (756515)
04-21-2015 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Dubreuil
04-21-2015 11:41 AM


Gene Roddenberry is a god? Triune?
I probably could continue writing here for months, and the knowledge about the respective sciences and the paper would still be insufficient to write a substantiated comment about it. I really don't need this comments. The paper was already looked at by people with enough knowledge about the respective sciences.
Respective sciences...
Your paper does not demonstrate any particular expertise in anything except watching television and taking notes in this language you have invented. Other than that, what you seem to be doing is misapplying one of mankind's greatest gifts; the ability to find complex patterns in a set of observations. Surely that ability marks great intelligence and is a great survival aid. Unfortunately, as Dr. Tyson described during the Cosmos series, when this great gift is pushed too hard, we get things like a belief that comets are harbingers of evil events, astrology, etc.
And of course papers like yours.
And to what end? We know that biological life as a whole contains patterns. But the theory is that naturally occurring processes identified as a part of evolution are perfectly capable of generating patterns. Similarly, an analysis one of the most formulaic inventions of mankind, namely the episodic tv show, that finds patterns is not exactly an eye-popping piece of news either. It is only your claims that the pattern means something makes your paper worth talking about.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Dubreuil, posted 04-21-2015 11:41 AM Dubreuil has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2015 11:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 226 of 393 (756529)
04-22-2015 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Dr Adequate
04-21-2015 11:50 PM


Content hidden - Adminnemooseus
{Non-topic sniping material hidden. - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Non-topic sniping material hidden (also, signature turned off).
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Change subtitle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2015 11:50 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 393 (756593)
04-23-2015 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Coyote
04-22-2015 8:09 PM


Re: wtf???
So, to use an old phrase, you caught him palming the pea, eh?
From the description, it seems he managed to fool himself at the shell game. He accurately recorded exactly what he saw, in exactly the tradition of Tycho Brahe and Robert A. Millikan. Otherwise, RAZD could not review his work without watching old Star Trek episodes.
But then finishing in the well worn style of the crank [1], the author managed to find his pre conceived conclusions by using less admirable forms of... let's call it data reduction, which rendered whatever care used in the gathering and reporting of the data quite moot.
Besides that, how can people talk about patterns in Star Trek and fail to mention all those red shirted security guys that bought the farm.
[1] An excerpt from the site http://www.crank.net
quote:
-10 is not a negative number. It is mathematically MINUS as in the operation, but that it exists shows that it is positive. There is only positive, into infinity and then lack of a number. This fits the definition which is so clear with every other subject of study. Speed: No negative speed exists, only none and speed into infinity. Heat: No negative heat exists, only none and then heat into infinity.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Coyote, posted 04-22-2015 8:09 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 234 of 393 (756612)
04-23-2015 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Dubreuil
04-23-2015 12:03 PM


RAZD showed that it is possible to write comments like this. I will also ignore all posts from:
1. Coyote: He suggested to ignore all portions of the paper, although there was still a discussion about it. Therefore I will also ignore all posts of him if he wants to join a discussion one day.
2. Dr Adequate: He has more likely a Ph.D in insulting than in maths.
I have to admit to being a bit disappointed that I did not to make your list. I'm going to blame that on that pesky moderator's interference because he hid part of my exchange with Dr. Adequate. You can still find my comment by using "peek".
Regarding Coyote's suggestion to ignore all parts of your paper, I can see the reason why such a thing would be considered insulting. But please consider that his comment springs from your own confusing position about what your paper does and does not contain.
In particular, the section of your paper labeled "Testing the pattern for a triune God" has logical holes in it that expose a lack of ability to draw reasonable conclusions from data. Consider the following logical chain quoted from your paper.
"If there is a triune God as designer that wants to be known, then a person called God could always appear as P.Ya."
Clearly there are some other unstated assumptions here that ought to be explored prior to looking drawing any conclusions about what the data might mean. And even the statement you do make are loaded up with ifs and maybes. Yet you do not even devote time to addressing the assumptions you explicitly did make.
As a result, the following quoted statement is completely unjustified based on anything you write in your paper.
quote:
There are proponents of intelligent design, that assume the designer can only be the christian God, although it is not part of the theory of intelligent design itself. The found law-like pattern contains enough information to test this assumption.
At best you can reach the conclusion[1] that your data is not inconsistent with the Christian God revealing himself through a TV series only moderately popular with non geeks in a fashion viewers are, by your insistence, unable to discern without your help.
quote:
Appendix I Proof that God appears as P.Ya
Proof...
Uh, you are aware that Star Trek is science fiction written and directed by someone whose religious position is not documented? How are you separating God's actions from man's actions in your analysis? Why is it reasonable to assume (and in fact to assume conclusively) that your patterns are not artifacts of deliberate choices made by writers and directors working on the show?
So should we ignore the explicitly religious parts of your paper? Why is your paper in the Religion and Spiritualism section of the archive?
Since you've mentioned Dr. Adequate and your disbelief in his credentials, what are your relevant credentials?
[1] We can reach a similarly "strong" conclusion about the shape of snow flakes or the fact that total solar eclipses are visible from earth's surface.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Dubreuil, posted 04-23-2015 12:03 PM Dubreuil has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Dubreuil, posted 04-24-2015 1:59 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 240 of 393 (756663)
04-24-2015 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Dubreuil
04-24-2015 1:59 PM


The "Proof" shows that the three persons "God", "Jesus" and "Bible" can only appear as P.Ya.
The item you claimed to be testing was the proposition that the Christian God is the intelligent designer of the ID hypothesis. Where did you test that proposition?
And you did not actually, "Prove" that even the proposition that you claim. What you have showed, at best, is that a particular appearance did not occur in a very few television series episodes. You have not established that such an appearance could not occur.
But more importantly, the fact remains that the writers do not insert events randomly, and they are not, in fact attempting and failing to generate random events. They are trying to tell a story that makes some sense. So the question still remains regarding what the significance of your exercise ever could be. Given that people know and are generally respectful of religion, is there something more to be explained about the depiction of God, Jesus or Abraham Lincoln in these episodes?
NoNukes writes:
How are you separating God's actions from man's actions in your analysis?
Dubreuil writes:
. A person who wanted to intentionally include this data, would have needed a broad knowledge about how to design all episodes properly.
What you need to demonstrate is that a person who simply wanted to tell a bunch of stories of a particular genre, week after week, and who had no intention of including "data" would not find himself creating elements which you would then determine to be meaningful. Showing a low probability of generating a pattern by inserting elements at random does not accomplish that because random generation is not a model for how episodes are written and filmed.
In short, you are nowhere near making a convincing argument that you are not simply drawing your bull's eyes around whatever your shooting happens to hit. And every time you force an element or provide rules that allow alternatives, all you are doing is force fitting data because the pattern did not work without the alternatives.
Edited by NoNukes, : Remove double negative.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Dubreuil, posted 04-24-2015 1:59 PM Dubreuil has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Dubreuil, posted 04-25-2015 11:31 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 249 of 393 (756723)
04-25-2015 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Dubreuil
04-25-2015 11:31 AM


NoNukes writes:
The item you claimed to be testing was the proposition that the Christian God is the intelligent designer of the ID hypothesis. Where did you test that proposition?
Dubreuil writes:
From page 14: "If there is a triune God as designer that wants to be known, then a person called "God" could always appear as P.Ya. For this purpose it was looked for series that include "God" at the beginning. If God appears always as P.Ya, then this would strongly indicate the existence of a triune God as the designer of intelligent design.
Do you honestly not see the huge logic error here?
Here is the form of your argument.
If A then B must be true.
B (God always appears as P.Ya) is true, therefore I have proven A.
Your argument which I have reproduced in skeleton from above, is a classic example of 'Affirming the consequent' is a well known example of bad argument.
quote:
AFFIRMING THE CONSEQUENT
Logical Form:
If P then Q.
Q.
Therefore, P.
Example #1:
If taxes are lowered, I will have more money to spend.
I have more money to spend.
Therefore, taxes must have been lowered.
Explanation: I could have had more money to spend simply because I gave up crack-cocaine, prostitute solicitation, and baby-seal-clubbing expeditions.
As a second point, you have not even reached the point of proving B because only a very few episodes even provide an opportunity to assess B.
Thirdly, your statement "If A then B" or "If there is a triune God as designer that wants to be known, then a person called "God" could always appear as P.Ya." Is a bunch of wishy washy claptrap. And what if we replace the A portion with just about anything else? The example resulting statement, "If my goldfish were the Queen of England, the a person called 'God' could always appear as P.Ya.," is also "proven" according to your logic.
Now do you see the issue with your 'proof' and your 'testing'. It's totally bogus, and no amount of data can save that.
Finally, your messages would be less confusing if you addressed Cat Sci elsewhere. I am pretty sure that I have not used any profanity in my sarcastic messages.
Edited by NoNukes, : Expansion of argument by providing another counter example.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Dubreuil, posted 04-25-2015 11:31 AM Dubreuil has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Dubreuil, posted 04-25-2015 5:03 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 253 of 393 (756731)
04-25-2015 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Dubreuil
04-25-2015 5:03 PM


If A then B must be true.
If B (God always appears as P.Ya) is true, then A could be true.
Two points. First, logically speaking, premise A 'could' have been true even without the argument. So concluding that A could be true using a bad argument accomplishes nothing. What's more using data to show B does not even improve the probability that A is true. And as I've said before, you cannot even establish B to anyone's satisfaction other than your own.
Secondly, your argument actually is not even If A then B. Your argument is if A then maybe B could be true. (If there is a Triune god, and if he wanted to be recognized then he could do B is what you actually claimed)
"If taxes are lowered, I will have more money to spend.
I have more money to spend, therefore the taxes could have been lowered."
At least in the case of the example above, the first premise If A then B is reasonable logical and in accordance with human experience. In contrast, your first premise is true only because you've made it so wishy washy so as to include the possibility that B both does and does not not follow from A.
Again, these are flaws that your experiment simply does not address. No amount of data fixes a bad argument.
And as for your argument that there are no alternatives. That argument is nonsense. Your probability arguments are flawed for reasons well covered by everyone here. And you haven't ruled out supernatural causes completely unrelated to the Christian God or ordinary human agency.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Dubreuil, posted 04-25-2015 5:03 PM Dubreuil has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 254 of 393 (756738)
04-26-2015 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Dubreuil
04-25-2015 5:03 PM


But if a godlike alien creates patterns, then you would not expect it to camouflage it by adding a reference about a triune God.
Interesting. So your claim is that you know what, for example, Loki or Mephistopheles might or might not do in this regard? No, I don't believe you can describe the thought process of every unspecified alien being of unlimited power.
My claim, yet to be refuted or even addressed by you is that simply by trying to write a good story, and sticking to well accepted, and well worn conventions, human actions is sufficient to explain the relationships you observed regarding P.Ya. (Well that and your flexible rules about what constitutes an appearance). I suspect that stories that violate your observation would not pass the smell test of being acceptable stories for a largely Christian audience.
When I put you to this question, you start calculating random probabilities. But random assembling of elements make an incoherent story. And bad incoherent stories ought to be screened out or modified before being presented on TV. Surely you see the parallel between your argument here and the typical ID arguments regarding evolution.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Dubreuil, posted 04-25-2015 5:03 PM Dubreuil has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by RAZD, posted 04-26-2015 8:21 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 257 by Dubreuil, posted 04-26-2015 11:53 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 260 of 393 (756751)
04-26-2015 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Dubreuil
04-26-2015 11:53 AM


wouldn't say a residual uncertainty of 1:10^3 is nothing.
Your assignment of uncertainty is not correct. It is indeed nothing.
The actual origin of this was only discussed short. There is not that much evidence to discuss this question.
Yet you did it anyway. And titled the paper as though something along this line had been accomplished.
I still have yet to convince your probability assessments are wrong. I think you have too much invested in your work to consider the argument. So here is an experiment. Describe a hypothetical scene in which P.Ya is counter to what you predict. Let's see if we can understand why such a scene might not make into a Star Trek episode without invoking any supernatural entity to make it so.
Currently you can flip a coin. If heads, then there might be a triune God, if tails, then probably not.
Say what?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Dubreuil, posted 04-26-2015 11:53 AM Dubreuil has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Dubreuil, posted 04-26-2015 5:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024