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Author Topic:   Discontinuing research about ID
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 376 of 393 (759852)
06-15-2015 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 11:57 AM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
Just the fact that scientist's are currently battling just to copy the process even though the blueprint and the ingredients are already known, is testimony to the impossibility of nature not just copying DNA, but DESIGNING it spontaneously. The concept requires intelligent life.

So, you're intelligent designers ... did they design every living thing on this planet? Or are we just talking about humans? Did they just design the Human's DNA ... giving us intelligence as a "gift"?
Did they design Avian Flu ... and then hide it for eons in a (time release gel cap) time capsule?
Then comes the next question in the series ... why design such a world of life as this, and then disappear, never to check on your "masterpiece" again. Don't claim UFOs, either. I am pretty sure that the best of our progress is not found in some corn field in BFE, Kansas.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 11:57 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 3:47 PM mikechell has responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 127 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 377 of 393 (759853)
06-15-2015 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by dazz
06-15-2015 2:54 PM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
How is your design hypothesis not pure conjecture?
Where is your objective evidence?
How is your hypothesis nothing more than an argument from ignorance?
How is the design hypothesis not abiogenesis anyway?

Fair questions. I would say that my beliefs on the origins of life were originally faith-based. Since then observations of genetic diversity have strengthened my beliefs, but they were originally faith based.

I believe the same applies to anyone who chooses to prefer abiogenesis despite a lack of evidence, this is a faith based decision, in many instances coming from a cynical place of emotional hurt rather than a pure scientific decision. The science supporting abiogenesis is lacking.

Why do creationists always put human intelligence over nature? Why be so self centered? Of course, we are intelligent, the universe can't live without intelligence. Well, breaking news, it did for billions of years and will do so once we're gone

I believe God is the intelligent one. I don't put much value in our finite and biased minds to come to truth. The process of reaching some truths is a far higher process than one of intelligence, its a spiritual process.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by dazz, posted 06-15-2015 2:54 PM dazz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by dazz, posted 06-15-2015 6:06 PM mindspawn has responded
 Message 387 by herebedragons, posted 06-16-2015 6:47 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 127 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 378 of 393 (759855)
06-15-2015 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by mikechell
06-15-2015 3:35 PM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
So, you're intelligent designers ... did they design every living thing on this planet? Or are we just talking about humans? Did they just design the Human's DNA ... giving us intelligence as a "gift"?
Did they design Avian Flu ... and then hide it for eons in a (time release gel cap) time capsule?
Then comes the next question in the series ... why design such a world of life as this, and then disappear, never to check on your "masterpiece" again. Don't claim UFOs, either. I am pretty sure that the best of our progress is not found in some corn field in BFE, Kansas.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear until now, I have been using more general terms. I believe in God, not just any alien intelligent designer. Yes I believed He designed all biological life as per the bible in Genesis chapter 1.

Most life has retained its original DNA , but some have undergone some minor changes of reduced complexity (disabled genes). Other life forms have undergone dramatic changes atrributable to changes to allele frequencies, ie no major genetic changes, merely changes of the expresssion of certain allelle combinations in a given population.

Since the fall of man (the sin of Adam and Eve) disease and mortality has become part of earth, it was not originally intended. God gave this earth to mankind, and instead of ruling this earth properly, mankind sinned, and evil now rules this earth through mankind. God will come soon to put this right again. In this sense planet earth is a "rogue planet", this situation will soon be corrected.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by mikechell, posted 06-15-2015 3:35 PM mikechell has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by dazz, posted 06-15-2015 6:12 PM mindspawn has not yet responded
 Message 382 by mikechell, posted 06-15-2015 9:25 PM mindspawn has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3784
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 379 of 393 (759862)
06-15-2015 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 2:20 PM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
In other words, you don't have evidence or argument, just blind unquestioning belief. Got it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 2:20 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
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dazz
Junior Member (Idle past 668 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 04-30-2015


Message 380 of 393 (759872)
06-15-2015 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 3:36 PM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
Dude, god's creation myth creating life out of clay and stuff, IS ABIOGENESIS TOO.

Nobody knows exactly how life began, so while we collect the evidence to prove abiogenesis without divine intervention, I'll grant you the argument from ignorance.

Problem is we'll have to rewrite the bible and add something like

"And God made the prokaryote to his own image"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 3:36 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by mindspawn, posted 06-16-2015 5:40 AM dazz has not yet responded

  
dazz
Junior Member (Idle past 668 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 04-30-2015


Message 381 of 393 (759874)
06-15-2015 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 3:47 PM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
quote:
God will come soon to put this right again. In this sense planet earth is a "rogue planet", this situation will soon be corrected

FML, you are the scary uber-deluded fundamentalist type.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 3:47 PM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 382 of 393 (759901)
06-15-2015 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 3:47 PM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
In this sense planet earth is a "rogue planet"...

So ... if Earth is a "rogue planet" ... do you believe there are other planets out there that were also designed with life?
Perhaps James and Sarah did NOT eat the fruit of knowledge and thus kept their planet pure and Eden like? No need for progress on that planet ... all of the people born there are worthy to be god's friends.
If these other planets birth enough friends for god, perhaps he won't need ANY of the ones from here ... and when ...

God will come soon to put this right again.

He'll just flood the place again ... without giving anyone the chance to build an ark.

ooooooo Intelligent supreme being design sure is scary!!!!


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 3:47 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by mindspawn, posted 06-16-2015 5:45 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 127 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 383 of 393 (759913)
06-16-2015 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by dazz
06-15-2015 6:06 PM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
"Abiogenesis is the process by which a living organism arises naturally from non-living matter, as opposed to biogenesis, which is the creation of living organisms by other living organisms."

Both abiogenesis and creation are in the realm of the supernatural. Life had to start somewhere. Sure attempts can be made to rationalise abiogenesis, but the science behind it does not exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by dazz, posted 06-15-2015 6:06 PM dazz has not yet responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 127 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 384 of 393 (759914)
06-16-2015 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by mikechell
06-15-2015 9:25 PM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
So ... if Earth is a "rogue planet" ... do you believe there are other planets out there that were also designed with life?
Perhaps James and Sarah did NOT eat the fruit of knowledge and thus kept their planet pure and Eden like? No need for progress on that planet ... all of the people born there are worthy to be god's friends.
If these other planets birth enough friends for god, perhaps he won't need ANY of the ones from here ... and when ...

There could be other planets out there designed with life. I believe there are, the bible is pretty silent on that.

He'll just flood the place again ... without giving anyone the chance to build an ark.
ooooooo Intelligent supreme being design sure is scary!!!!

Whatever the motivation for your off topic rant, I hope it helps you. He sent his own son Jesus to reconcile us to Him. He allowed his own son to be mutilated and killed. Whoever relies on Jesus gets restored to that original condition, in a relationship with God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by mikechell, posted 06-15-2015 9:25 PM mikechell has not yet responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 127 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 385 of 393 (759915)
06-16-2015 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by JonF
06-15-2015 4:56 PM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
In other words, you don't have evidence or argument, just blind unquestioning belief. Got it.

Many of my points of view are based on evidence. What is your evidence for the origin of life?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by JonF, posted 06-15-2015 4:56 PM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by RAZD, posted 06-16-2015 1:46 PM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12516
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 386 of 393 (759917)
06-16-2015 6:22 AM


Moderator Ruling: Current Discussion is Off Topic
This thread is for discussing Dubreuil's work on developing a theory of ID, which means the current discussion is off-topic. Dubreuil is not active at present, and while his presence isn't required to discuss his ideas, that isn't happening right now, so this thread should remain dormant for the time being.

Anyone desiring to continue the current discussion should propose a new thread over at Proposed New Topics.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1334
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 387 of 393 (759919)
06-16-2015 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 3:36 PM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
Welcome back mindspawn,

Since then observations of genetic diversity have strengthened my beliefs,

You should bring your observations over to Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity, it is what we are discussing over there. Faith could use some help and sounds like you might have some knowledge of population genetics.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 3:36 PM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13313
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 388 of 393 (759956)
06-16-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 1:40 PM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
mindspawn writes:

I was merely pointing out the unlikelihood of the original design occurring spontaneously if intelligent minds battle to replicate it.


You're just underlining the fact that intelligent minds can only work with existing processes. ID, even if it could be substantiated, tells us nothing about the origin of the process itself. And if the process already existed, how can you establish a "need' for intelligence to manipulate it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 1:40 PM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18767
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 389 of 393 (759989)
06-16-2015 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by mindspawn
06-16-2015 5:48 AM


Re: my problem with intelligent design
Many of my points of view are based on evidence. What is your evidence for the origin of life?

Curiously, my (deist) .belief is that the universe is\was designed to produce life, and earth just happens to be one of the lucky locations where that came to be.

My evidence is listed in:
Panspermic Pre-Biotic Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part I)
and Self-Replicating Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part II)

One of the questions for anyone looking into the origin of life is what is the definition of life (when do you know life has begun)? My definition is that life is something that can evolve, where the process of evolution (changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in an iterative feedback response to the different ecological challenges and opportunities for growth, development, survival and reproductive success in changing or different habitats) begins.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by mindspawn, posted 06-16-2015 5:48 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
Dubreuil
Member (Idle past 509 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 04-02-2015


Message 390 of 393 (770115)
09-29-2015 5:59 PM


I received now the decision about the peer-review of four months. The paper was not accepted for publication. The editor also stated: "In fact, one of them was at great pains to describe for me how meticulously your pattern followed the scripts of the episodes of the shows in question". But the reviewers also agreed that an unconscious human origin is implausible. There were to many other influences for example intentionally created patterns by humans. These additional influences would also change the pattern, and no common pattern would emerge. The paper would be not ready to publish in this state and was not accepted for publication.
I agree with this, this is the reason why the paper supported ID before. But there is no journal that accepts a mathematical paper about ID for a peer-review, therefore I will send the paper to a few more journals and hope they will overlook this part about the explanation of the pattern. Sergii and me originally started with this to mathematical describe unconscious decision processes of humans. Unfortunately it turned out to support ID, which makes it impossible to find a journal to review it without changes. I'm not interested to support an unpopular topic among academicians because I'm more interested in my personal advancement. Therefore it is not a big loss for me to see this paper not published, I never was an ID proponent before anyway. If you don't hear from me again after three years, then I probably gave up to sent it to other journals for a peer-review with this additional mistake to get it peer-reviewed. If someone is interested about it, then the paper is available in Message 1. There was already a preprint from 18 months ago. It contained the same pattern, but only applied to one series. It was shown for the same pattern one year later, how it applied to three more series. There could be added every year three more series, which all would fit with the same pattern. But no one will review it, therefore the work about this paper was discontinued a half year ago. This was also explained in the paper with common and modern mathematics, but the timestamps at viXra also show that the pattern was created first over 18 months ago and was afterwards shown fitting again with three other data sources one year later.

GaryG writes:

Only a fool would believe that a theory like this would be treated on its scientific merits by a religiously motivated forum that only does a good job throwing insults and misrepresenting all I say.

I absolutely agree with you. The difference among the convictions is obvious. The persons who want to research freely comment under their real names and are polite. The persons who are absolutely against ID comment under different names and are insulting as hell. How could I take this people serious?
If you have finished your work about your biological theory, then you should send it to BIO-Complexity for a review, no other journal will review a paper about ID. But you have to register there and prove your academic affiliation before you can submit a paper. For us this wasn't a problem, we are both academically affiliated. If you are not affiliated, then you should show them your simulation of life, maybe they will make an exception for you.


Replies to this message:
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