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Author Topic:   You Will Always Have the Poor
nwr
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Posts: 5504
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 16 of 77 (756277)
04-17-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jon
04-17-2015 11:36 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Whether the things reported are true or not doesn't take away our power to discuss the way the scenes fit into the overall narrative and accompanying belief system.

Sure. And I have been doing that. But, in doing that, I follow the principle of charity. We should read it as though people are making sense. And what seems to make sense is that Jesus was just saying that we can postpone the problem of the poor until later, so that we can treat this generous woman as she deserves.

Given everything else that he said, it does not make sense (so is contrary to the principle of charity), to interpret Jesus as saying "fuck the poor."


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Faith
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Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 17 of 77 (756278)
04-17-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jon
04-17-2015 7:10 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
And if you do a Google search for this phrase, you will find countless websites attempting to explain this scene to a population of Christians hellbent on excusing themselves from the daunting responsibility of being Christians.

That's horrible slander. Prove it.

Christians give more money to help the poor and suffering than any other group by far, and put themselves personally on the line to give help as well. You might be interested in this:

http://www.worldmag.com/...kristof_s_defense_of_evangelicals

On Sunday, New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof observed a cemented bias against evangelical Christians among his erudite colleagues:

Today, among urban Americans and Europeans, evangelical Christian is sometimes a synonym for rube. In liberal circles, evangelicals constitute one of the few groups that its safe to mock openly.

Kristofs argument is not ideological. He is driven by the most practical motivation: He has seen sincere evangelical Christians around the world sacrificing their personal health, well-being, and livelihood to feed the poor and care for the sick. He has seen evangelicals running into war zones and humanitarian criseseven as other aid workers were escaping:

Yet the liberal caricature of evangelicals is incomplete and unfair. I have little in common, politically or theologically, with evangelicals. But Ive been truly awed by those Ive seen in so many remote places, combating illiteracy and warlords, famine and disease, humbly struggling to do the Lords work as they see it, and it is offensive to see good people derided.


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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 77 (756279)
04-17-2015 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 11:32 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
The disciples said "What about the poor?" and Jesus replied, "don't worry about them now, this is important too".

What do you suppose Matthew's purpose was in removing Mark's "you can show kindness to them whenever you wish" line?


Love your enemies!

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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9320
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 19 of 77 (756280)
04-17-2015 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
04-17-2015 11:40 AM


What exactly do you think topped his list?

The very top priority for Jesus was how we treated each other, and our relationship to God. Not necessarily in that order. Treatment of the poor, and the imprisoned and the downtroden was one aspect of that.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11176
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 20 of 77 (756281)
04-17-2015 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Jon
04-17-2015 12:06 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
What do you suppose Matthew's purpose was in removing Mark's "you can show kindness to them whenever you wish" line?

To make it more about Jesus and less about the poor.

Jesus was pointing out that He wasn't going to be around for very long, so if they wanted to adore Him then they'd need to do it now. But the poor weren't going anywhere so, they could still help them after Jesus had left.

Its like when you're putting something off, and you go: "Meh, I can always do that later". Its not so much that you can always do that later as it its that in practically all ways, you have the ability to get it done later.


This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 77 (756282)
04-17-2015 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
04-17-2015 12:03 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
And if you do a Google search for this phrase, you will find countless websites attempting to explain this scene to a population of Christians hellbent on excusing themselves from the daunting responsibility of being Christians.

That's horrible slander. Prove it.

Did you bother doing the Google search, Faith?

"The Poor You Will Always Have:" It's Not A Prediction!

That's one; I'll leave you to find the others on your own.

You might be interested in this:

I'm not.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 04-17-2015 12:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 04-17-2015 12:17 PM Jon has responded
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 12:29 PM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9320
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 22 of 77 (756283)
04-17-2015 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Jon
04-17-2015 12:06 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
What do you suppose Matthew's purpose was in removing Mark's "you can show kindness to them whenever you wish" line?

My theory is that there was no purpose. Each person told his version of the story, and it is not as though Jesus had a stenographer following him everywhere. I suspect that absent some belief that there was something nefarious about the missing line, the comment did not make any particular impression on Matthew.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 12:06 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 12:24 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
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Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 23 of 77 (756284)
04-17-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jon
04-17-2015 12:14 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Yeah I found somebody accusing Christians of having that attitude, I did not see any evidence that they do.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 12:14 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 12:23 PM Faith has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 77 (756285)
04-17-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by New Cat's Eye
04-17-2015 12:14 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
To make it more about Jesus and less about the poor.

But the author has no real reason to do that; by the time he begins writing Jesus has been long dead.

The only way Matthew's audience could make it more about Jesus and less about the poor would be to spend more time and/or money on their secretive worshiping and less on alleviating poverty.

By removing the reminder that the poor will still need to be helped, Matthew makes Jesus' charge to focus on him over the poor for that one night an eternal commandment.

Sounds like a good excuse for getting new seats in the church while the folks on the street sleep in boxes.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 77 (756286)
04-17-2015 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
04-17-2015 12:17 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Did you miss the link to the Washington Post article on Rick Perry?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 04-17-2015 12:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 04-17-2015 12:33 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 77 (756287)
04-17-2015 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by NoNukes
04-17-2015 12:15 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
From where do you think Matthew sourced this particular scene?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2015 12:15 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9320
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 27 of 77 (756288)
04-17-2015 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jon
04-17-2015 12:14 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Jon writes:

That's one; I'll leave you to find the others on your own.

From the site.

quote:
esus is not telling them not to worry about the poor because they are an intractable social ill. What he is saying is that he himself is not going to be around much longer. (We call this foreshadowing or a prediction of his crucifixion.) This woman is anointing him as he will be anointed at his death. Jesus is making a statement of comparison: she is doing this now because I wont be around much longer.

In fact, the Catholic Church is urging that we not interpret Jesus words in exactly the way that you are doing in the OP.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 12:14 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 3:03 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 28 of 77 (756289)
04-17-2015 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jon
04-17-2015 12:23 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
I read the article. He's saying it's not really a big problem, that jobs are available. You misread it. Why are you so intent on accusing Christians of failure to help the poor when in fact they've always been known for the opposite?.
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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11176
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 29 of 77 (756291)
04-17-2015 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
04-17-2015 12:21 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
To make it more about Jesus and less about the poor.

But the author has no real reason to do that; by the time he begins writing Jesus has been long dead.

I meant: To make what Jesus was talking about to be more clear as being more about the part about anointing Jesus that being about dismissing the poor.

The only way Matthew's audience could make it more about Jesus and less about the poor would be to spend more time and/or money on their secretive worshiping and less on alleviating poverty.

Jesus wasn't saying to not help the poor, He was saying that it was a good thing that she was anointing Him, and that you don't have to stop doing all other good things in order to help the poor at all times, especially when time is of the essence. The poor aren't going anywhere, they'll be there and you can help them, but Jesus was going somewhere, so it made sense to help Him right then.

By removing the reminder that the poor will still need to be helped, Matthew makes Jesus' charge to focus on him over the poor for that one night an eternal commandment.

How does it make it an eternal commandment?

Sounds like a good excuse for getting new seats in the church while the folks on the street sleep in boxes.

Sounds to me like you're trying to make it that way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 12:21 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9320
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 30 of 77 (756292)
04-17-2015 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jon
04-17-2015 12:24 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
From where do you think Matthew sourced this particular scene?

Clearly there are shared sources between the Gospels of Mark and Matthew. One thing that is clear is that the Gospel of Matthew describes different aspects of Jesus from Mark even when they describe the exact same event.

But absent Jesus passing out copies of his speech, it is not difficult to imagine multiple accounts of what Jesus said where different statements are remembered as the most important.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 12:24 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Jon, posted 04-17-2015 3:04 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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