Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8751 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-27-2017 12:26 AM
123 online now:
Coyote, Dredge, DrJones*, ramoss (4 members, 119 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Roshankumar1234
Post Volume:
Total: 809,075 Year: 13,681/21,208 Month: 3,163/3,605 Week: 505/933 Day: 3/40 Hour: 3/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1234
5
6Next
Author Topic:   You Will Always Have the Poor
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 77 (756362)
04-18-2015 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by NoNukes
04-18-2015 9:37 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
What did Jesus actually say?

If you want to engage in the fruitless search for Jesus' actual words, have at it.

I'm not going to waste my time on that kind of nonsense.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2015 9:37 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 12:02 AM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9547
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 62 of 77 (756364)
04-19-2015 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Jon
04-18-2015 10:12 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
I'm not going to waste my time on that kind of nonsense.

That's fine. But I'll note that you ducked a bunch of other questions I posed. The fact is that you have little to no basis for assuming that Matthew omitted anything.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Jon, posted 04-18-2015 10:12 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Jon, posted 04-19-2015 10:03 AM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9547
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 63 of 77 (756365)
04-19-2015 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Jon
04-18-2015 4:40 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Who's talking about accurate reporting of what happened?

You are Jon. When you speak of omissions and a confusing message, those are questions involve accuracy of Matthew's message. This is particularly true because we all seem to agree that Jesus was not saying to ignore the poor.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Jon, posted 04-18-2015 4:40 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Jon, posted 04-19-2015 10:01 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 77 (756379)
04-19-2015 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by NoNukes
04-19-2015 12:05 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
You are Jon. When you speak of omissions and a confusing message, those are questions involve accuracy of Matthew's message.

No, they are questions involving the difference between Matthew's account and Mark's.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 12:05 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 2:11 PM Jon has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 77 (756380)
04-19-2015 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by NoNukes
04-19-2015 12:02 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Your other questions were also nonsense.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 12:02 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 2:09 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9547
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 66 of 77 (756392)
04-19-2015 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Jon
04-19-2015 10:03 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Your other questions were also nonsense.

Actually, those questions were completely germane and answerable. The problem is that you've declared them to be off topic so that you can continue to make assertions that you cannot back up.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Jon, posted 04-19-2015 10:03 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9547
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 67 of 77 (756393)
04-19-2015 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Jon
04-19-2015 10:01 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
No, they are questions involving the difference between Matthew's account and Mark's.

Okay. And the point is that you assume Mark is accurate and assert that Matthew has made an omission. I'm challenging your call on that point, and your answer seems to be that addressing the question is off topic.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Jon, posted 04-19-2015 10:01 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Jon, posted 04-19-2015 2:19 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 77 (756394)
04-19-2015 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by NoNukes
04-19-2015 2:11 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
And the point is that you assume Mark is accurate and assert that Matthew has made an omission.

Is your head full of rocks?

How many times do I have to tell you that I don't care about 'accuracy' or what 'actually' happened?

I'm challenging your call on that point, and your answer seems to be that addressing the question is off topic.

Well, I don't assume what you think I assume, so your challenge is empty.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 2:11 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 2:41 PM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9547
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 69 of 77 (756395)
04-19-2015 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Jon
04-19-2015 2:19 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
How many times do I have to tell you that I don't care about 'accuracy' or what 'actually' happened?

Any time you raise a question about the motive for the author leaving something out, the question of what 'actually happened' is inherent in your question. Your position inherently makes a statement about what actually happened, or what the author's sources say happened.

It does not matter how many times you explicitly deny caring about what happened, when your questions and posts say something else.

It's not my fault if your thread is stupid.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Jon, posted 04-19-2015 2:19 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Jon, posted 04-19-2015 4:29 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 77 (756402)
04-19-2015 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by NoNukes
04-19-2015 2:41 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Any time you raise a question about the motive for the author leaving something out, the question of what 'actually happened' is inherent in your question.

No it isn't.

Your position inherently makes a statement about what actually happened, or what the author's sources say happened.

No it doesn't.

It's not my fault if your thread is stupid.

Then stop wasting my time; jeesh.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2015 2:41 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 04-20-2015 9:00 AM Jon has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 71 of 77 (756444)
04-20-2015 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Jon
04-19-2015 4:29 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Argumentative today?

Treat your audience with respect...because your audience you will always have with you...unless you like talking to yourself...

Anyway...my take on all of this is not the "jar" position you seem to be pushing. I dont believe that the bible was a progressive marketing campaign to reach a certain audience for a certain reason.

I will admit, however, that a case can be made for such a position. Perhaps a question for you, the originator of this thread is which audience are you trying to speak with? Christians or secular...or both?


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Jon, posted 04-19-2015 4:29 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Jon, posted 04-20-2015 9:40 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 77 (756448)
04-20-2015 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
04-20-2015 9:00 AM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Argumentative today?

Well it does get tiring being asked the same stupid question over and over again by someone who doesn't understand the difference between the story (which we have for certain) and the 'actual' events behind the story (which may or may not have ever taken place).

Perhaps a question for you, the originator of this thread is which audience are you trying to speak with? Christians or secular...or both?

Anyone who can read the text, be honest about what they say, and is willing to discuss the text as we have it rather than some made up fantasy related to how 'accurate' the texts might depict historical events.

It also wouldn't hurt if that 'audience' had a little understanding of the textual research done over the last hundred years or so regarding the NT gospels.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phat, posted 04-20-2015 9:00 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13025
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 73 of 77 (756457)
04-20-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Jon
04-18-2015 1:41 PM


Re: You Will Always Have the Poor
Jon writes:

Why do you think Matthew removed that important phrase to write a 'twistable' story when retaining it would have left matters no more or less debatable than Mark's account?


Maybe he didn't consider the phrase important. Maybe he went for lunch and lost his place. Maybe he didn't care whether some goober two thousand years in the future would be confused.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 04-18-2015 1:41 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 74 of 77 (761935)
07-06-2015 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jon
04-16-2015 11:54 PM


Those pesky poor
Maybe He mean't "poor in spirit".

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Jon, posted 04-16-2015 11:54 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 75 of 77 (775377)
01-01-2016 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
04-16-2015 7:05 PM


What is the purpose of this verse?

It is hard to reconcile it with Jesus' general position of placing the poor on the top of the list of priorities.

There's an obvious conflict in this scene of course. Jesus has to be anointed. But many readers might ask "why not sell the oil and give the money to the poor like Jesus suggests the rich man do in Mt 19:21?" And, indeed, the disciples foil out that very question.

Is the verse in question the only answer the Gospel authors could think of or does it have some deeper meaning?

And what does it say of the Jesus character?

In the context of the narrative, this is Jesus' way of saying to Judas that he knows that Judas doesn't intend on salvaging the money for the poor, but rather for himself. Remember, he betrayed Jesus for mammon.

However, what you've highlighted I too have cited to show that poverty will never be eradicated, regardless of all the prayers and works in the world. A pretty stunning admission considering it was the same guy that said "Nothing is impossible for you... if you have faith." So which is it? Is nothing impossible, like the eradication of poverty or will the poor always be with us?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 04-16-2015 7:05 PM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 01-01-2016 8:45 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 01-02-2016 11:36 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Prev1234
5
6Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017