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Author Topic:   Corporate Interests & Democracy's Death Knell
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 51 (758752)
06-01-2015 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
06-01-2015 11:53 AM


It's democracy as defined by your own Constitution.
I wasn't aware that the U.S. Constitution was a dictionary.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 06-01-2015 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 06-01-2015 12:41 PM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 32 of 51 (758753)
06-01-2015 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Jon
06-01-2015 12:39 PM


Jon writes:
ringo writes:
It's democracy as defined by your own Constitution.
I wasn't aware that the U.S. Constitution was a dictionary.
Then you need to broaden your awareness. The US Constitution is, by definition , the definition of US democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 06-01-2015 12:39 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 06-01-2015 1:39 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 51 (758755)
06-01-2015 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
06-01-2015 12:41 PM


Then you need to broaden your awareness. The US Constitution is, by definition , the definition of US democracy.
It's the definition of U.S. government.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 06-01-2015 12:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 06-02-2015 11:47 AM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 34 of 51 (758782)
06-02-2015 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jon
06-01-2015 1:39 PM


Jon writes:
It's the definition of U.S. government.
Exactly. It's the definition of a democratic government.
A dictionary defines the word "democracy". The Constitution defines the institution - i.e. the practice - of democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Jon, posted 06-01-2015 1:39 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Jon, posted 06-02-2015 2:40 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 51 (758786)
06-02-2015 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
06-02-2015 11:47 AM


Exactly. It's the definition of a democratic government.
It is the definition of a government. How democratic that government is depends on the person making the judgement.
Democracy can take many forms; where in that mix the U.S. falls in practice varies over time and under different interpretations (those by judges, for example).

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 06-02-2015 11:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 06-03-2015 3:14 PM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 51 (758817)
06-03-2015 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Jon
06-02-2015 2:40 PM


Jon writes:
Democracy can take many forms; where in that mix the U.S. falls in practice varies over time and under different interpretations (those by judges, for example).
In the context of your original claim, it would make sense to compare the US government to itself. Is it becoming less democratic or more?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Jon, posted 06-02-2015 2:40 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 06-03-2015 4:33 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 51 (758820)
06-03-2015 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
06-03-2015 3:14 PM


Is it becoming less democratic or more?
In my opinion?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 06-03-2015 3:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 06-03-2015 4:57 PM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 38 of 51 (758822)
06-03-2015 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jon
06-03-2015 4:33 PM


Jon writes:
ringo writes:
Is it becoming less democratic or more?
In my opinion?
You might want to think before you express an opinion. (Some hints: votes for women, desegregation....)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 06-03-2015 4:33 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 06-03-2015 5:42 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 51 (758824)
06-03-2015 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
06-03-2015 4:57 PM


You might want to think before you express an opinion.
My opinion is that the ability of our government to work in the interest of the people has been diminished over time, even if we've been including more and more folks in our definition of 'people'.
(Some hints: votes for women, desegregation....)
Equal treatment under the law has no necessary relationship with democracy.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 06-03-2015 4:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 06-04-2015 9:24 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 06-04-2015 11:42 AM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 51 (758851)
06-04-2015 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jon
06-03-2015 5:42 PM


Equal treatment under the law has no necessary relationship with democracy.
Some animals are more equal than others.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 06-03-2015 5:42 PM Jon has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 51 (758860)
06-04-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jon
06-03-2015 5:42 PM


Jon writes:
My opinion is that the ability of our government to work in the interest of the people has been diminished over time, even if we've been including more and more folks in our definition of 'people'.
The ability of the government to work in the interest of the people has no necessary relationship with democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 06-03-2015 5:42 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Jon, posted 06-04-2015 8:07 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 51 (758878)
06-04-2015 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
06-04-2015 11:42 AM


Huh?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 06-04-2015 11:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 06-05-2015 11:45 AM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 43 of 51 (758898)
06-05-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Jon
06-04-2015 8:07 PM


Jon writes:
Huh?
You said, "... the ability of our government to work in the interest of the people has been diminished over time..." and, "Equal treatment under the law has no necessary relationship with democracy."
I'm saying that the ability of the government to work in the interest of the people has no necessary relationship with democracy either - so your point about equal treatment is moot.
By analogy, you're saying that dogs are smarter than cats because they have four legs; I'm pointing out that cats also have four legs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Jon, posted 06-04-2015 8:07 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Jon, posted 06-05-2015 3:00 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 51 (758914)
06-05-2015 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
06-05-2015 11:45 AM


You said, "... the ability of our government to work in the interest of the people has been diminished over time..." and, "Equal treatment under the law has no necessary relationship with democracy."
I'm saying that the ability of the government to work in the interest of the people has no necessary relationship with democracy either - so your point about equal treatment is moot.
The ability of the people who make the decisions to make them in their interests is the basic component of a functioning government.
In a democracy, the 'people who make the decisions' should be the electorate. When the decisions they make no longer translate into a service of their interests, we must ask whether they are really the ones making the decisions (whether the democracy is a mirage) and if they are whether there is systemic malfunction preventing their decisions translating into a service of their interests (whether the democratic component of the system is broken though present)
By analogy, you're saying that dogs are smarter than cats because they have four legs
By analogy I'm really not.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 06-05-2015 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 06-06-2015 11:50 AM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 51 (758956)
06-06-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Jon
06-05-2015 3:00 PM


Jon writes:
When the decisions they make no longer translate into a service of their interests, we must ask whether they are really the ones making the decisions...
Or... we could ask ourselves if our translation is accurate. Do "we" - meaning you - really know what the people's interests are? Maybe the people do know what their interests are and you're the one who doesn't.
Jon writes:
... whether there is systemic malfunction preventing their decisions translating into a service of their interests....
If there is a systemic malfunction, it's that the American people have abandoned much of their role in democracy, trusting their interests to capitalism: "What's good for business is good for me." That isn't democracy breaking down; it's just failure to use democracy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Jon, posted 06-05-2015 3:00 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by MrHambre, posted 06-06-2015 1:21 PM ringo has replied
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 06-06-2015 9:32 PM ringo has replied

  
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