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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Evil?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 7 of 120 (761824)
07-06-2015 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
07-05-2015 7:00 PM


Sheesh. A least give a tiny amount of context...
My only concern is the harm that these ludicrous beliefs can do and now it's very clear that all flavours of Christianity - no matter who defines them - are no longer anything like the problem they were to other faiths a few hundred years ago. For that we have rationalism and secular law to thank. Left to their own devices, religions would be as primitive and destructive as extreem Islam is today.
Christianity has been tamed, Islam has not, yet.
It's clear that religions cause divisions between individuals, groups and countres and the more ferthant the belief, the more damage they cause. Both history and present day activities show that plainly.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 07-05-2015 7:00 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by saab93f, posted 07-06-2015 5:34 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 07-06-2015 7:23 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 07-06-2015 8:05 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 9:22 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 120 by Greatest I am, posted 10-12-2015 4:07 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 13 of 120 (761888)
07-06-2015 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
07-06-2015 7:23 AM


Re: Division
Phat writes:
Perhaps a question to be raised is why the very idea of belief in general causes an automatic division. Not everything imaginable can be evidence based.
There are many ways to conflict.
If those beliefs say that only they know the truth and the way, whilst others say that their belief is the only truth and the way, then you're going to have a fight. Particularly if you find those beliefs in competition for your own.
If there is a tribe in the next county that believes something different to you, you can label them heretics and treat them as an inferior, inhuman, class, demonise them and ultimately give yourself a licence to do anything nasty you can think of to them.
If you have an ambiguous book that can be interpreted in many ways, you create disagreement, schism and at worst, civil wars.
If benign religious ideas are adopted by cynical people and exploited for their own benefit empires and institutions are create power and wealth which last for generations.
When ancient myths and superstitions created by religious 'thinkers' are demonstrably at odds with objective observations of our world, the organisations reliant on those myths will attempt to prevent the real truth from surfacing to maintain their positions.
Need I go on?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 07-06-2015 7:23 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 07-06-2015 12:39 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 15 of 120 (761904)
07-06-2015 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
07-06-2015 12:39 PM


Re: Division
Not quite. Some Christians are 'evil' and some Christian ideas are 'evil' (tho' that's word is contentious in itself.) It's a perfect storm.
examples of 'evil' Christian ideas are many
- only people that subscribe to their brand can get to heaven
- babies that die before being christened can't get to heaven
- contraception is a mortal sin for which you go to hell
- people are born with sin
- women are inferior creatures
- the church can be super rich whilst taking money from the poor and preaching that you must give to the poor
- you can buy indulgences
- prayer works
- heretics can be lawfully killed
- you can wage holy wars
and so on

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 07-06-2015 12:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 07-06-2015 1:15 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-07-2015 6:10 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 20 of 120 (761969)
07-07-2015 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
07-06-2015 1:15 PM


Re: Division
Ringo writes:
It's debatable whether those are "Christian ideas" or just ideas that some Christians have.
They've all been invented by mainstream organisations that call themselves Christians. (Let's avoid the 'no true Christian' bollocks.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 07-06-2015 1:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 07-07-2015 11:48 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 21 of 120 (761970)
07-07-2015 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
07-06-2015 1:28 PM


Re: Division
Jar writes:
Actually I have a real question whether more than two of Tangle's examples could even be remotely considered as evil.
Well I disagree, but I would have thought that two was enough to debunk a religion claiming to represent the ultimate good.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 07-06-2015 1:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 07-07-2015 8:26 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 23 of 120 (761978)
07-07-2015 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
07-07-2015 6:10 AM


Re: Division
I know, Faith, only your kind of Christianity is true Christianity.
Billions beg to differ.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-07-2015 6:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-07-2015 8:04 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 25 of 120 (761982)
07-07-2015 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
07-07-2015 8:04 AM


Re: Division
Faith writes:
Since when is truth determined by popularity?
Since when is truth determined by unpopularity?
A couple of points - it's rather obvious that my position is that no branch of Christianity is 'true'. Rather, that all branches of the brand - including your own - have made up all this nonsense and will continue to do so it seems.
Some of this nonsense causes people to do some very bad things and believe ideas that are bad for them. Hence 'evil', a rather silly word which I'm interpreting to mean harm of various sorts.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-07-2015 8:04 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 07-07-2015 8:20 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 28 of 120 (761987)
07-07-2015 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
07-07-2015 8:26 AM


Re: Division
Jar writes:
But since neither of the two possible evils are universal or exclusive to Christianity or even to religions your position seems just plain silly.
Christians believe different things. They badly agree on anything. The point is that religions have beliefs which are often harmful, some devastatingly so.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 07-07-2015 8:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 07-07-2015 9:51 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 30 of 120 (761989)
07-07-2015 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
07-07-2015 8:20 AM


Re: Division
Phat writes:
Can you show that any form of lifestyle and philosophy is anything other than made up?
Why would I want to do that? We're talking about religions - they're universally man made with no empirical backing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 07-07-2015 8:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 43 of 120 (762037)
07-07-2015 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
07-07-2015 11:48 AM


Re: Division
Ringo writes:
No they haven't.
Yes they have. Now what?
Most of your objections are common to many religions.
Exactly, they're all wrong, we just happened to be discussing Christianity.
As Jon said in the OP Christianity began as a "pacific" religion, certainly more pacific than its Mosaic roots. The evil in it is largely superimposed, not inherent.
If all Christians just stuck with 'do as you would be done by' we'd have nothing to argue about but they don't. Christianity grew into schismed power hungry institutions from Constantine and before that it was a divisive mess with many variants of your club Christian kicking around saying weird and wonderful things about what they thought it all meant.
The evil is definately superimposed but it's also intrinsic, as soon as someone says that only my way is the right way, everything else follows.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 07-07-2015 11:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Jon, posted 07-07-2015 11:35 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 07-08-2015 3:17 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 45 of 120 (762052)
07-08-2015 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Jon
07-07-2015 11:35 PM


Re: Division
Jon, Christianity without people and their interpretation of it doesn't actually exist does it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Jon, posted 07-07-2015 11:35 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 07-08-2015 2:13 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 07-08-2015 6:44 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 50 of 120 (762066)
07-08-2015 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
07-08-2015 6:44 AM


Re: Division
Tangle writes:
Jon, Christianity without people and their interpretation of it doesn't actually exist does it?
Jon writes:
Of course not.
So, this leaves you with work to do to explain what on earth you're talking about doesn't it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 07-08-2015 6:44 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 07-08-2015 7:02 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 57 of 120 (762090)
07-08-2015 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jon
07-08-2015 7:02 PM


Re: Division
Jon writes:
I mostly started this thread to see your evidence that "[l]eft to their own devices, religions would be as primitive and destructive as extreem Islam is today".
Remember you said there was evidence? In fact, you said that "there's actually a lot of it" (Message 1025).
So you started this thread so that I would do something? I wonder what could be wrong with that?
My interest is in how secular institutions have rescued society from primitive, superstitious beliefs and how, over time, that has resulted in a fall in crime (aka evil) I will eventually get around to it. But that's not going to happen for at least 6 months. Feel free to remind me in January.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 07-08-2015 7:02 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 59 of 120 (769302)
09-18-2015 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
09-18-2015 9:22 PM


Phat writes:
Sometimes division is what is needed.
For what?
This whole idea of a humanistic kum ba ya feelgood mentality that not only tolerates but accepts all beliefs as equally valid is not what Jesus preached.
Generally, Jesus taught 'do as you would be done by' which is a universal, 'kum ba yar' moral message working against division and conflict.
Where the Christian message - and most other religious messages - go wrong is claiming to be the one true religion and the only way to various afterlife existences. Some of them believe this to be so true that they go about killing people for it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 9:22 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 09-20-2015 12:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 63 of 120 (769399)
09-20-2015 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by GDR
09-20-2015 12:04 PM


GDR writes:
don't agree that is entirely true about Christianity.
So you have a different opinion. Just like Lewis had a different opinion. The problem with both your views are that they're just opinion. Neither you nor Lewis has any more knowledge of God's intentions than I or anyone else has.
1.2 billion Catholics also have a different opinion. And of course Faith and her ilk. And also 1.6 billion Muslims. And 1bn atheists/deists/secularists etc etc. Tricky to simply assume that you're right just because it suits the way you - and Lewis - prefer it to be.
The trouble with your beliefs is that they can be anything you want them to be and you can find a suitably errudite writer to elucidate them for you - these people exist in every belief system.
It's nice to know that in the West at least, Christianity is being tamed and civilised but it's not universal and Christianity is not the only religion and it's not all terribly nice.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 09-20-2015 12:04 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by GDR, posted 09-20-2015 5:23 PM Tangle has replied

  
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