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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Evil?
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 46 of 120 (762053)
07-08-2015 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Tangle
07-08-2015 2:08 AM


Re: Division
I suppose we need to agree on "what their own devices" are....in regards to historic as well as contemporary Christianity.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2015 2:08 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 123 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 47 of 120 (762057)
07-08-2015 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
07-07-2015 4:26 PM


Re: My position on the question of whether or not Christianity is evil.
But I agree that was the wrong decision. That does not make God or Christianity evil. That makes what they did evil and the God they created evil.

What is the difference? The deity you claimed they created as opposed to an objective, genuine supernatural entity. For me this sounds even more like a cop-out, that God is always good but his followers bad, God gave people freewill but only to Christians and that there really is no true Scotsmen.

Yes, you said that the decision those wicked missionaries or Padres made were wrong but so what - the end justifies the means? There is no giving Indians their faith or culture back, no way of recreating the codices and no way to unbreak hearts.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't your justification that those evil people did what they did because they wanted to save the souls of the savages. They thought that was necessary, noone else did. Evil in my book.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 07-07-2015 4:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 120 (762061)
07-08-2015 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Tangle
07-08-2015 2:08 AM


Re: Division
Jon, Christianity without people and their interpretation of it doesn't actually exist does it?

Of course not.

But luckily I never said that it does.

Now instead of stalling, how about you present some evidence?

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2015 2:08 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2015 9:11 AM Jon has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 49 of 120 (762065)
07-08-2015 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by saab93f
07-08-2015 3:59 AM


Re: My position on the question of whether or not Christianity is evil.
What is the difference? The deity you claimed they created as opposed to an objective, genuine supernatural entity. For me this sounds even more like a cop-out, that God is always good but his followers bad, God gave people freewill but only to Christians and that there really is no true Scotsmen.

But I have not said anything like that.

First, I doubt very much that God is either good or evil, moral or immoral. Moral, immoral, even amoral are all just human constructs we use to describe individual assessment of something.

All people have freewill. But freewill and freedom are not synonyms.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by saab93f, posted 07-08-2015 3:59 AM saab93f has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by saab93f, posted 07-08-2015 9:21 AM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4642
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 50 of 120 (762066)
07-08-2015 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
07-08-2015 6:44 AM


Re: Division
Tangle writes:

Jon, Christianity without people and their interpretation of it doesn't actually exist does it?

Jon writes:

Of course not.

So, this leaves you with work to do to explain what on earth you're talking about doesn't it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 07-08-2015 6:44 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 07-08-2015 7:02 PM Tangle has responded

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 123 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 51 of 120 (762067)
07-08-2015 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
07-08-2015 8:54 AM


Re: My position on the question of whether or not Christianity is evil.
Sorry, I thought that your choice of words "the God they created" implying that the real thing was somehow better or more moral than that.

I personally cannot believe in anything more than what we have here and now. That does not mean that I couldn't comprehend the need for "something bigger". For me that is just unnecessary - being good for goodness' sake and enjoying each day is more than enough.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 07-08-2015 8:54 AM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 52 of 120 (762070)
07-08-2015 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by saab93f
07-08-2015 9:21 AM


Re: My position on the question of whether or not Christianity is evil.
Sorry, I thought that your choice of words "the God they created" implying that the real thing was somehow better or more moral than that.

I believe any God we can discuss or folk can describe is a human creation.

GOD, if GOD exists is something beyond whatever we might be able to describe.

But terms like moral or immoral, good or evil, seem silly when applied to something beyond any comprehension.

I personally cannot believe in anything more than what we have here and now. That does not mean that I couldn't comprehend the need for "something bigger". For me that is just unnecessary - being good for goodness' sake and enjoying each day is more than enough.

And that is fine. I have never suggested anyone should believe or not believe in GOD. If GOD does exist, and if GOD really is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, then I cannot imagine such an entity really giving a damn about whether or not some human believes in it.

My point is that as a Christian I believe we need to acknowledge that other Christians have in the past and still today behave in a despicable manner. We cannot have an easy cop out by pretending God wanted it done or those people were not Christians or that it was not Christian policy.

The lesson is that people can and do do horrible things and that we need to acknowledge that fact and try to do better in the future.

To return to Christianity I grew up within let me point to a major part of every church service and home service I experienced which is called the Confession. In it we are lead to really think about our behavior and we are expected to do a series of thing, acknowledge when we screw up, be sorry we did so, try to make amends and also to not repeat the acts.

It's not enough to just say "Repent" or "Not perfect, just SAVED" or "Jesus forgives my sins" , you need to do.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by saab93f, posted 07-08-2015 9:21 AM saab93f has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 53 of 120 (762074)
07-08-2015 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
07-08-2015 10:18 AM


Re: My position on the question of whether or not Christianity is evil.
jar writes:

I have never suggested anyone should believe or not believe in GOD. If GOD does exist, and if GOD really is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, then I cannot imagine such an entity really giving a damn about whether or not some human believes in it.

But yet we are charged to do....obviously the Deity would logically have to care about our discipline regarding our charge.

It makes me think though...Christianity is only as evil as Christians are...and we can't blame GOD.

One minor point of contention. You claim GOD to be "complete" being good and evil. I see GOD as "good". A "complete" GOD would not have as much of a problem with fallible humans doing what they felt to be best...even if those humans were behaving in an evil manor.

A "good" GOD, by contrast would be a bit harder to ignore...one would think.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 07-08-2015 10:18 AM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13023
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 54 of 120 (762079)
07-08-2015 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
07-07-2015 3:15 PM


Re: Division
Phat writes:

Groupthink? Crowd Mentality?


People who join organizations may be more susceptible to groupthink and/or crowd mentality than "freethinkers".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 07-07-2015 3:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13023
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 55 of 120 (762080)
07-08-2015 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Tangle
07-07-2015 5:13 PM


Re: Division
Tangle writes:

Yes they have. Now what?


I explained: "Most of your objections are common to many religions," etc. Your task would be to show that my explanation is wrong.

Tangle writes:

Exactly, they're all wrong, we just happened to be discussing Christianity.


I continued explaining: "Women are inferior creatures" is probably as common outside religion as in. Christians may have inherited evil from human nature or borrowed it from somewhere but it's a stretch to suggest that they "invented" anything. Your task would be to back up your claim that religion is the origin of any evil.

Tangle writes:

Christianity grew into schismed power hungry institutions from Constantine and before that it was a divisive mess with many variants of your club Christian kicking around saying weird and wonderful things about what they thought it all meant.


So you admit that the evil came from "power hungry institutions" - e.g. the Roman Empire - not the scatter-brained and disorganized early Christians.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2015 5:13 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 56 of 120 (762087)
07-08-2015 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Tangle
07-08-2015 9:11 AM


Re: Division
I mostly started this thread to see your evidence that "[l]eft to their own devices, religions would be as primitive and destructive as extreem Islam is today".

Remember you said there was evidence? In fact, you said that "there's actually a lot of it" (Message 1025).

So where is it, Tangle?

Where's your evidence?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2015 9:11 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Tangle, posted 07-08-2015 11:39 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4642
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 57 of 120 (762090)
07-08-2015 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jon
07-08-2015 7:02 PM


Re: Division
Jon writes:

I mostly started this thread to see your evidence that "[l]eft to their own devices, religions would be as primitive and destructive as extreem Islam is today".
Remember you said there was evidence? In fact, you said that "there's actually a lot of it" (Message 1025).

So you started this thread so that I would do something? I wonder what could be wrong with that?

My interest is in how secular institutions have rescued society from primitive, superstitious beliefs and how, over time, that has resulted in a fall in crime (aka evil) I will eventually get around to it. But that's not going to happen for at least 6 months. Feel free to remind me in January.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 07-08-2015 7:02 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 58 of 120 (769297)
09-18-2015 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
07-06-2015 2:29 AM


Tangle writes:

It's clear that religions cause divisions between individuals, groups and countries and the more fervant the belief, the more damage they cause.

Sometimes division is what is needed. This whole idea of a humanistic kum ba ya feelgood mentality that not only tolerates but accepts all beliefs as equally valid is not what Jesus preached.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 07-06-2015 2:29 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2015 11:52 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 09-19-2015 12:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4642
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 59 of 120 (769302)
09-18-2015 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
09-18-2015 9:22 PM


Phat writes:

Sometimes division is what is needed.

For what?

This whole idea of a humanistic kum ba ya feelgood mentality that not only tolerates but accepts all beliefs as equally valid is not what Jesus preached.

Generally, Jesus taught 'do as you would be done by' which is a universal, 'kum ba yar' moral message working against division and conflict.

Where the Christian message - and most other religious messages - go wrong is claiming to be the one true religion and the only way to various afterlife existences. Some of them believe this to be so true that they go about killing people for it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 9:22 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 09-20-2015 12:04 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13023
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 60 of 120 (769336)
09-19-2015 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
09-18-2015 9:22 PM


Phat writes:

This whole idea of a humanistic kum ba ya feelgood mentality that not only tolerates but accepts all beliefs as equally valid is not what Jesus preached.


You're misusing Matthew 10:37. Jesus was telling his followers to separate themselves from loved ones who DON'T do the kumbaya thing. He was underlining kumbaya, not rejecting it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 09-18-2015 9:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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