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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Evil?
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 91 of 120 (769853)
09-25-2015 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Tangle
09-23-2015 5:07 PM


Tangle writes:

You have singled out empathy as a special, god given, attribute for no other reason than it correlates with your beliefs system. This 'still small voice' and 'heart' stuff is just you saying god does it. In fact it's just another emotion like anger or fear. It's a human instinct (which is found in many other social animals.) Why do you not think that anger - 'the turbulent, large voice' is not the devil? Or do you?

Your position is also based on your atheistic beliefs. I stated earlier that as a Christian my beliefs are based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without the resurrection, in spite of what jar says, then Jesus becomes something of a delusional egomaniac with some really good ideas which can also be found elsewhere. If then I am correct about the resurrection, then it makes sense that God has confirmed the life and message of Jesus.

I have course made my argument for basic theism in many other threads.

As for the devil I am kinda agnostic. I think that if we think of him as a metaphorical figure representing the dark or selfish side of life we are on a safe track.

Tangle writes:

I've tried to explain this to you before but you seem to prefer to forget it. Most of the brain does not deal with rational decision making - executive functioning. Almost all of it - the most primitive parts deal with autonomous functioning - the things that allow you to breath and walk and pump blood around your body without having to actually think about it. Empathy is one such autonomus function - we don't think about wether we feel sorry for another person's predicament, we instinctively feel it. That instinct is developed to greater or lessor degree by traing and background. But can be entirely missing.

This feeling can be seen with fMRI and is not in your control - like a knee jerk reflex, it's not a thought process it's a reaction. Of course after the feeling of compassion happens, the rational brain can then decide what to do about it, but the body has already cast its vote.

Empathy and compassion is not a thought process or a rational choice it starts as a feeling and often stays that way.

I have no background in this, but what you are describing is a process. We also know that peoples empathy and reactions to empathy change. They are impacted by others as Dawkins talks about with his memes and who knows how many other factors. There is however no way that one can rule out that our hearts are impacted by that still small voice. We simply know that people change.

Also again, you are describing a process. It is a process that exists and whether or not it is the result of nothing but natural processes or if it is part of a designed process, (no I'm not into ID), is a matter of belief.

Edited by GDR, : typo


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2015 5:07 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2015 5:20 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4632
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 92 of 120 (769859)
09-25-2015 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by GDR
09-25-2015 2:50 PM


GDR writes:

Your position is also based on your atheistic beliefs.

To coin a phrase 'Oh Good grief'.

My position is based on our hard won scientific knowledge. You have singled out a specific human emotion called compassion or empathy and made it supernatural. Does that really make sense to you? Empathy is a physiological, measurable, predictable, replicable, reflex reaction found in all people - with the exception the mentally ill.

I have no background in this

As it seems so important to you, why don't you read some papers on it - these things are regularly reported in the press. It seems daft ro me to carry on making mistakes about the stuff we're learning about.

Also again, you are describing a process. It is a process that exists and whether or not it is the result of nothing but natural processes or if it is part of a designed process, (no I'm not into ID), is a matter of belief.

It is part of a process and it does exist - it's real and it's natural. It's no different than happiness, love or anger, lust, fear, saddness - whatever the complex list is now. There's no reason whatsoever to single empathy out as special and non-evolved. Of course you can say that your god set all that in motion at 'the creation' and I can't argue with that but I can argue with you if - as seems to be the case - that you are saying that god is intervening with this still little voice stuff in real time. Is that your position?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by GDR, posted 09-25-2015 2:50 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-26-2015 2:00 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9307
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 93 of 120 (769875)
09-26-2015 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
09-25-2015 5:20 PM


Evidence vs Belief
Tangle writes:

I can argue with you if - as seems to be the case - that you are saying that god is intervening with this still little voice stuff in real time.

I believe this. I believe that God intervenes. I cant describe how it happens--There is no concrete evidence that it has happened, or is happening, or will happen....and thus I have no defense in support of my belief.

My point is that I still believe.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2015 5:20 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2015 3:05 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4632
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 94 of 120 (769876)
09-26-2015 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
09-26-2015 2:00 AM


Re: Evidence vs Belief
Phat writes:

believe this. I believe that God intervenes. I cant describe how it happens--There is no concrete evidence that it has happened, or is happening, or will happen....and thus I have no defense in support of my belief.

Well that's your prerogative - you can believe what you like.

But it's rather hard to unscramble just what it is that you and GDR mean by this 'still small voice'. In this discussion it's been about feeling empathy and compassion for others and therefore being motivated to help them. Are you saying that the feeling of empathy you have when you see another human suffer is god speaking directly to you every time you feel it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-26-2015 2:00 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-26-2015 9:21 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9307
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 95 of 120 (769885)
09-26-2015 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tangle
09-26-2015 3:05 AM


Empathy in general vs "still small voice"
Tangle writes:

Are you saying that the feeling of empathy you have when you see another human suffer is god speaking directly to you every time you feel it?

No. Everyone has general empathy. I am suggesting that God places specific people on our hearts...people who otherwise would be largely shunned. Everyone can rescue a puppy, but it takes a real heart to rescue some old drunk with no redeeming qualities.

I am also suggesting that God works through people (such as yourself)
who may be unaware or oblivious of His presence.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2015 3:05 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2015 11:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 09-26-2015 12:03 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4632
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 96 of 120 (769894)
09-26-2015 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-26-2015 9:21 AM


Re: Empathy in general vs "still small voice"
Well there's nothing I can say to that Phat except you're just making stuff up.

Don't you think it more likely that people have different quantities of empathy like they have different quantities of height? That they might pick up caring values from others or that they may just find vocation that suits them? Why does god have to get directly involved and how? Why you and not me, or the guy next door? And how do you know?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-26-2015 9:21 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13017
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 97 of 120 (769895)
09-26-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-26-2015 9:21 AM


Re: Empathy in general vs "still small voice"
Phat writes:

Everyone can rescue a puppy, but it takes a real heart to rescue some old drunk with no redeeming qualities.


AHEM! Aren't you the one who's always preaching against that?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-26-2015 9:21 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-26-2015 8:49 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9307
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 98 of 120 (769937)
09-26-2015 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
09-26-2015 12:03 PM


Re: Empathy in general vs "still small voice"
My intention was not to preach against helping old downtrodden.

My point is that doing so will not enhance your status with the Creator.

I guess that my whole irritation at your admonition was because I felt forced to do. I value that freedom highly. to choose not may oftentimes be a wrong choice. Were you I, would you surrender the freedom?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 09-26-2015 12:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 09-27-2015 2:24 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13017
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 99 of 120 (769980)
09-27-2015 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
09-26-2015 8:49 PM


Re: Empathy in general vs "still small voice"
Phat writes:

My point is that doing so will not enhance your status with the Creator.


Jesus said it will; in fact, it's the ONLY way to enhance your status with the creator.

Phat writes:

I guess that my whole irritation at your admonition was because I felt forced to do.


But it's God/Jesus doing the forcing. You want to have communion with God without doing actually doing what He tells you to do.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-26-2015 8:49 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-27-2015 3:22 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9307
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 100 of 120 (769990)
09-27-2015 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
09-27-2015 2:24 PM


Re: Empathy in general vs "still small voice"
Jesus was talking to Jews when He preached works.

Paul (whom you guys seemingly ignore) showed us that our righteousness was as filthy rags and that there was and is no way to earn salvation.

Salvation is a gift. It is not given only to those who hear and do.

In fact, having confidence in your own salvation based on how much works you do is a surefire recipe for failure.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 09-27-2015 2:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-27-2015 3:37 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13017
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 101 of 120 (769991)
09-27-2015 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
09-27-2015 3:22 PM


Re: Empathy in general vs "still small voice"
Phat writes:

Jesus was talking to Jews when He preached works.


No He wasn't. He was talking to "all nations".

Phat writes:

Paul (whom you guys seemingly ignore) showed us that our righteousness was as filthy rags and that there was and is no way to earn salvation.


If you're relying on second-hand commentary rather than the Son of God, don't forget that James said, "Faith without works is dead."

Phat writes:

Salvation is a gift. It is not given only to those who hear and do.


The only way you can tell who has received the gift is by their deeds. By their fruit ye shall know them, not by their saying, "Lord! Lord!"

Phat writes:

In fact, having confidence in your own salvation based on how much works you do is a surefire recipe for failure.


It isn't about having confidence in your salvation. NOBODY should have confidence in their salvation. You should be constantly asking yourself, "Did I do enough?" You should be expecting God to ask you on the Judgement Day, "What about that homeless man you stepped over on the night of April 17th?"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-27-2015 3:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-28-2015 10:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9307
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 102 of 120 (770057)
09-28-2015 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
09-27-2015 3:37 PM


Good Works. A Chore or an Impartation?
You are dismissing the influence of the Holy Spirit. Pauls "information" was directly from God when he was knocked off his High Horse on the Damascus Road. There are several examples of the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Peter, despite having been on the mount of transfiguration, denied Christ 3 times as jesus said he would do. Later he was instrumental in 3000 people coming to know the Lord.

You seem to think that the message is simply one of trying to do ones best with no help from God. My point is that a transformed life is never achieved through works. The only thing one gets is a satiated
conscience.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-27-2015 3:37 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 09-29-2015 11:46 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 104 by jar, posted 09-29-2015 1:10 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13017
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 103 of 120 (770091)
09-29-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
09-28-2015 10:03 PM


Re: Good Works. A Chore or an Impartation?
Phat writes:

You are dismissing the influence of the Holy Spirit.


Correct. You can't invoke the Holy Spirit to trump Jesus.

Phat writes:

Pauls "information" was directly from God when he was knocked off his High Horse on the Damascus Road. There are several examples of the influence of the Holy Spirit.


Paul may have been in perfect communion with God at the gates of Damascus but we're talking about what he said, not what he "knew". He can possibly be forgiven for making Get Out of Hell Free sound easy for the Romans, Corinthians, et al. After all, you don't sell Kentucky Fried Chicken franchises by telling people how hard it is to make a profit.

But you, having Jesus' own words (supposedly) to go by, have no excuse for watering down the message.

Phat writes:

You seem to think that the message is simply one of trying to do ones best with no help from God.


I have never said that you won't get any help from God. I have said that you can't COUNT on any help from God. You are REQUIRED to do your best, whether He helps you or not. Otherwise, you're a goat.

Phat writes:

My point is that a transformed life is never achieved through works.


Your point is wrong. The "transformation" IS the works.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-28-2015 10:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28826
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 104 of 120 (770099)
09-29-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
09-28-2015 10:03 PM


Re: Good Works. A Chore or an Impartation?
Phat writes:

You are dismissing the influence of the Holy Spirit. Pauls "information" was directly from God when he was knocked off his High Horse on the Damascus Road. There are several examples of the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Actually, if you read the Bible accounts of Paul's experience what you find is not an example of "The Holy Spirit" doing anything but rather a tale getting embellished and expanded as it is repeated over time. You know that since I have pointed out the progressio0n of the tale passages to you specifically several times.

Phat writes:

Peter, despite having been on the mount of transfiguration, denied Christ 3 times as jesus said he would do. Later he was instrumental in 3000 people coming to know the Lord.

And when Peter asked Jesus what he was supposed to do Jesus did not tell him to believe or preach or any other woo stuff, Jesus said "Feed my people."

Phat writes:

You seem to think that the message is simply one of trying to do ones best with no help from God. My point is that a transformed life is never achieved through works.

The only thing one gets is a satiated conscience.

So many errors.

First is there any evidence of a transformed life?

Jesus says repeatedly by word and by acts that we are to do; to heal the sick, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, shelter the homeless, teach the children, comfort the sorrowful. I know you know that since I have gone over those passages verse by verse with you many times. That is what Jesus taught instead of what Paul and Peter and Luke and John tried to market.

And it is not about what you get, it is about what you give, what you return to others.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 09-28-2015 10:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 09-29-2015 7:16 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9307
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 105 of 120 (770118)
09-29-2015 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by jar
09-29-2015 1:10 PM


Marketing A Message
jar writes:

That is what Jesus taught instead of what Paul and Peter and Luke and John tried to market.

Im going to investigate whether there is any real evidence that Jesus had a different message than the fab four. The dispensationalists have ready explanations. The message did change---we see that. There is no evidence that the message was being sold rather than told, however.

First is there any evidence of a transformed life?
I would argue that there is evidence in most cases.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 09-29-2015 1:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 09-29-2015 8:09 PM Phat has responded

  
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