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Author Topic:   There is no evolution or creationism - this is the new Matrix/DNA world view
Taq
Member
Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 106 of 149 (765697)
08-04-2015 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ICANT
08-04-2015 2:00 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
Mutations are not a game. They are either beneficial or detrimental to the cell.

You forgot a third option: neutral.

But beneficial or detrimental they can not produce new information.

In order for this claim to be relevant, you need to show that evolution would need to produce new information (as you define it) in order to produce the biodiversity we see today.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2015 2:00 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 10:26 AM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 107 of 149 (765698)
08-04-2015 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ICANT
08-04-2015 1:28 PM


Re: To Percy
When the male sperm and the female egg combine the 23 chromosomes from each the DNA required to build a human exists in whatever you want to call that entity. I call it a human being.

The amazing thing is that the DNA that is present at that moment will always produce a human being. It never produces any other creature.

Since that human being has a mind, body and spirit what ever the existence before T=0 was it would have the same as man is created in that image and likeness.

That is a lot of empty assertions. What you are ignoring is that the DNA in sperm and eggs carries mutations, so offspring are going to be different than their parents. Also, mutation is random as are the specific egg and sperm that unite to form that offspring. There is no guarantee at any point that a specific human will be produced. The same two parents will produce a different human being every time, with its own specific genome that is different from parents and siblings.

As you move forward in time and humans change, at what point do you no longer call them humans? At one time there were only wolves. Now there are wolves and thousands of dog breeds. At what point did a wolf stop being a wolf and become a Chihuahua?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2015 1:28 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 108 of 149 (765765)
08-05-2015 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ICANT
08-04-2015 1:46 PM


Re: To Percy
ICANT writes:

I also believe that new information would be required to be added to the DNA of any creature before it could evolve from a previous form.


You don't need to "add new information". You just need to change the existing information.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2015 1:46 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 10:56 AM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9921
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 109 of 149 (765783)
08-05-2015 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ICANT
08-04-2015 2:00 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
Poker is a game.

Mutations are not a game. They are either beneficial or detrimental to the cell.

So you would discard three bad cards and draw new ones from the deck even though the cards from the deck are in random order. Why?

And what is the difference between a beneficial mutation and one that adds new information?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2015 2:00 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 10:54 AM NoNukes has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 110 of 149 (766061)
08-11-2015 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Taq
08-04-2015 2:45 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
Hi Taq,

Taq writes:

In order for this claim to be relevant, you need to show that evolution would need to produce new information (as you define it) in order to produce the biodiversity we see today.

Maybe I have got things wrong.

As I understand it each human cell has all the information required to build a human body. Is this true?

If each human cell has all the information required to build a human body, how can the information in those cells produce anything other than a human body?

For the information in those cells to produce something other than a human body a lot of new information would be required.

Where would that information come from?

Maybe you can clear this up for me.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 08-04-2015 2:45 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2015 11:05 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2015 2:28 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2015 2:37 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 127 by Taq, posted 08-17-2015 4:19 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 111 of 149 (766063)
08-11-2015 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by NoNukes
08-05-2015 7:36 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

So you would discard three bad cards and draw new ones from the deck even though the cards from the deck are in random order. Why?

You really wouldn't want to play poker with me. Poker is a game of math.

NoNukes writes:

And what is the difference between a beneficial mutation and one that adds new information?

A beneficial mutation would be one where something is aided such as a worm in my garden. I spray him with poison and eventually his offspring builds an immunity to the poison. I would then have to use a different poison to control. his offspring. His offspring would develop an immunity to that poison and I would have to change poisons again. After the fourth generation I could return to the original poison and control that generation with it until they built up an immunity to the poison. So we would have and endless cycle of changing poisons. This critter would remain a worm.

New information introduced into the cells would cause the cells to build something other than the worm I had been trying to control.
This critter would be something other than a worm.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by NoNukes, posted 08-05-2015 7:36 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2015 2:09 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 112 of 149 (766064)
08-11-2015 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by ringo
08-05-2015 3:57 PM


Re: To Percy
Hi Ringo,

Ringo writes:

You don't need to "add new information". You just need to change the existing information.

Which the correction mechanism's in the DNA would correct.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 08-05-2015 3:57 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 08-11-2015 11:57 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 113 of 149 (766065)
08-11-2015 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by MrHambre
08-04-2015 2:28 PM


Re: Gene Duplication
Hi MrHambre,

MrHambre writes:

Ever heard of gene duplication? That's when DNA recombination gives rise to a copy of a gene, which then acquires mutations that make it produce a different protein and serve a different function in the organism.

If it is a duplicate it can do nothing that the original could not do.

Every time a duplicate cell is made it has the exact same DNA information as the original. If it didn't it would not be a duplicate.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by MrHambre, posted 08-04-2015 2:28 PM MrHambre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2015 2:25 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5063
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 114 of 149 (766068)
08-11-2015 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by ICANT
08-11-2015 10:26 AM


Re: To Dr Adequate
IC writes:

Maybe I have got things wrong.

Yup.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 10:26 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 11:20 AM Tangle has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 115 of 149 (766071)
08-11-2015 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Tangle
08-11-2015 11:05 AM


Re: To Dr Adequate
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Yup

Where is the explanation then.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2015 11:05 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2015 1:04 PM ICANT has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 116 of 149 (766084)
08-11-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by ICANT
08-11-2015 10:56 AM


Re: To Percy
ICANT writes:

Which the correction mechanism's in the DNA would correct.


The fact that there IS a correction mechanism shows that the operation of DNA is not perfect - i.e. the correction mechanism doesn't always work either.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 10:56 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5063
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 117 of 149 (766094)
08-11-2015 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ICANT
08-11-2015 11:20 AM


Re: To Dr Adequate
IC writes:

Where is the explanation then.

You're not interested in the explanation, you can't be because it's been given to you - and many others here - over and over again.

So I thought I'd just cut to the chase.

But to help you out a bit. Biology does not expect, nor does evolution predict, that one species will give birth to a different species. That's Just creationist bollox ie a lie.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 11:20 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2015 3:42 PM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 118 of 149 (766101)
08-11-2015 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ICANT
08-11-2015 11:02 AM


Re: Gene Duplication
Every time a duplicate cell is made it has the exact same DNA information as the original.

He's not talking about cells duplicating, he's talking about gene duplication.

DNA replicates itself, but that replication process is imperfect and prone to errors.

Whenever DNA replicates itself, the new strand of DNA is never exactly the same as the strand it was duplicated from.

Yes, that is not perfect duplication.

But those replication errors do lead to new information being added to the DNA.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 11:02 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 119 of 149 (766102)
08-11-2015 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ICANT
08-11-2015 10:26 AM


Re: To Dr Adequate
As I understand it each human cell has all the information required to build a human body. Is this true?

If each human cell has all the information required to build a human body, how can the information in those cells produce anything other than a human body?

For the information in those cells to produce something other than a human body a lot of new information would be required.

Wow, is your understanding of evolutions really limited to one individual giving birth to an offspring that is a different species?

Evolution happens to populations, not individuals.

And its so gradual that nobody would ever really notice.

Do you really think that one day a wolf gave birth to a chihuahua?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 10:26 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2015 3:46 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9921
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 120 of 149 (766117)
08-12-2015 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by ICANT
08-11-2015 10:54 AM


Re: To Dr Adequate
You really wouldn't want to play poker with me. Poker is a game of math.

I'm not afraid of your math.

In any event, a poker game has very little to do with math because everybody competent knows the relative probabilities.

A beneficial mutation would be one where something is aided such as a worm in my garden. I spray him with poison and eventually his offspring builds an immunity to the poison.

How exactly is that accomplished, ICANT. You are describing a possible result and not a mechanism.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 10:54 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2015 3:49 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 138 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-18-2015 12:46 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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