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Author Topic:   There is no evolution or creationism - this is the new Matrix/DNA world view
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10065
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 121 of 149 (766119)
08-12-2015 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by ICANT
08-11-2015 10:26 AM


Re: To Dr Adequate
As I understand it each human cell has all the information required to build a human body. Is this true?

If each human cell has all the information required to build a human body, how can the information in those cells produce anything other than a human body?

If the human brain contains all of the information necessary to produce a sculpture of Platos head, then how can that same brain do mathematics?

Seriously ICANT, this has got to be one of the lamest arguments every made.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 10:26 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2015 3:54 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 122 of 149 (766375)
08-17-2015 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Tangle
08-11-2015 1:04 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

But to help you out a bit. Biology does not expect, nor does evolution predict, that one species will give birth to a different species. That's Just creationist bollox ie a lie.

I don't expect one species to give birth to a different species.

Neither does the observed fossils indicate that one species gives birth to another species.

What is observed is that at different times in the earth's history that all of a sudden a lot of new species appeared and was observed.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2015 1:04 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Taq, posted 08-17-2015 4:37 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2015 4:54 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 123 of 149 (766376)
08-17-2015 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
08-11-2015 2:28 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
Hi Cat,

Cat writes:

Evolution happens to populations, not individuals.

So why is not that slow process observed on a daily basis today with a complete record of the process?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2015 2:28 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2015 3:57 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 124 of 149 (766377)
08-17-2015 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by NoNukes
08-12-2015 2:09 AM


Re: To Dr Adequate
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

How exactly is that accomplished, ICANT. You are describing a possible result and not a mechanism.

I am not talking about a possible result. I am talking about observed results from years of farming.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2015 2:09 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by NoNukes, posted 08-17-2015 8:57 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 125 of 149 (766378)
08-17-2015 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by NoNukes
08-12-2015 2:37 AM


Re: To Dr Adequate
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

Seriously ICANT, this has got to be one of the lamest arguments every made.

You mean asking if the DNA in each cell contained all the information to build a human body and how information can be added to that DNA is an argument. I thought it was a question.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2015 2:37 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Taq, posted 08-17-2015 4:41 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 132 by NoNukes, posted 08-17-2015 9:10 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 126 of 149 (766380)
08-17-2015 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
08-17-2015 3:46 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
So why is not that slow process observed on a daily basis today...

Because it takes generations, not days.

You're basically asking how you can know that your fingernails are growing when they're the same length as they were last night - well, yeah, you're gonna have to wait more than 8 hours to notice.

For evolutions, it's going to be centuries.

...with a complete record of the process?

Well, fossilization is a rare event.

How complete are you looking for? Horses, whales, and humans all have a great record of the process, but its never going to be totally complete.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2015 3:46 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2015 12:21 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 127 of 149 (766385)
08-17-2015 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by ICANT
08-11-2015 10:26 AM


Re: To Dr Adequate
If each human cell has all the information required to build a human body, how can the information in those cells produce anything other than a human body?

Sperm and egg cells do not have all the information needed to build a human body. When they combine to create a new genome, they create a genome that has never existed before. If you want to call it a wolf, Chihuahua, human, or whatever, that is up to you. What is important is that this organism with this genome has never existed before.

Over time, mutations in each generation will keep accumulating. When you compare individuals that lived millions of years apart there may very well be differences between them. At one point does one become the other? That is entirely arbitrary.

When does someone go from young to old? When does a young man go from being short to being tall? Skinny to fat, and maybe back to skinny? These are spectrums, just as evolutionary change is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 08-11-2015 10:26 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2015 12:44 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 128 of 149 (766387)
08-17-2015 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ICANT
08-17-2015 3:42 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
What is observed is that at different times in the earth's history that all of a sudden a lot of new species appeared and was observed.

That is exactly what we should see with evolution when those time points are separated by millions of years.

If all we had of you was two pictures, one from when you were 5 and another when you were 50, could we say that you suddenly became old instead of gradually aging?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2015 3:42 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 129 of 149 (766388)
08-17-2015 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ICANT
08-17-2015 3:54 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
You mean asking if the DNA in each cell contained all the information to build a human body and how information can be added to that DNA is an argument. I thought it was a question.

The accumulation of mutations over time causes species to be different through time.

You have one of two choices.

1. You can say that mutations can't produce new information. If that is your argument, then you have argued yourself out of the debate. If differences in DNA sequence that give rise to changes in morphology are not changes in information, then evolution doesn't need to produce new information in order to produce the biodiversity we see today.

2. You just admit that the most honest approach is to admit that mutations can produce new information.

The problem is that anti-evolutionists focus so hard on making it impossible for mutations to produce new information that they lose sight of what they were really trying to explain, how morphology can change over time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2015 3:54 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2015 12:57 PM Taq has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5159
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 130 of 149 (766390)
08-17-2015 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ICANT
08-17-2015 3:42 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
ICant writes:

What is observed is that at different times in the earth's history that all of a sudden a lot of new species appeared and was observed

Nope. New species do not suddenly appear nor is the fossil record a tape recording of history, it's a few snapshots taken millions of years apart.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2015 3:42 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2015 11:58 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10065
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 131 of 149 (766405)
08-17-2015 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by ICANT
08-17-2015 3:49 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
I am not talking about a possible result. I am talking about observed results from years of farming.

Let's restore the context to your claim.

I spray him with poison and eventually his offspring builds an immunity to the poison.

Quite frankly it is difficult to tell what you are claiming happens. You keep spraying a single worm and eventually that worm produces immune worms? I don't believe such a thing happens but I don't believe this is what you mean even though it is literally what you said.

I think you meant to say that you were spraying succeeding generations of worms. If so my question to you is what type of analysis of the worms did you do that allows you to tell us that the immune worms do not continue new information in their DNA that their ancestors did not have. How would you recognize new information and distinguish that from a beneficial mutation that did not add new information?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2015 3:49 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2015 1:05 PM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10065
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 132 of 149 (766407)
08-17-2015 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ICANT
08-17-2015 3:54 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
You mean asking if the DNA in each cell contained all the information to build a human body and how information can be added to that DNA is an argument. I thought it was a question.

Except that your question was not a query regarding 'how' information could be added to the DNA, now was it? Here is your question:

If each human cell has all the information required to build a human body, how can the information in those cells produce anything other than a human body?

Your question has a built in bad argument. Just because the information is sufficient to build a human body does not mean that said information is insufficient for other tasks. I provided an example intended to point out the problem.

Secondly, if a mutation does not add information, then your question has a simple answer. Some change to the current information, via mutation, is what is needed. If you don't believe that a mutation is new information, then I challenge you to show that something other than mutation is needed.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 08-17-2015 3:54 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 133 of 149 (766435)
08-18-2015 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Tangle
08-17-2015 4:54 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Nope. New species do not suddenly appear nor is the fossil record a tape recording of history, it's a few snapshots taken millions of years apart.

So you have absolutely no evidence that evolution has taken place.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2015 4:54 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 08-18-2015 12:12 PM ICANT has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13876
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 134 of 149 (766437)
08-18-2015 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ICANT
08-18-2015 11:58 AM


Re: To Dr Adequate
ICANT writes:

So you have absolutely no evidence that evolution has taken place.


I have a photo of myself beside a car with the Manhattan skyline in the background. I have another photo of myself beside the same car with the St. Louis Gateway Arch in the background. I have another photo of myself beside the same car with the Golden Gate Bridge in the background.

You're saying that I have absolutely no evidence that I drove from Atlantic to Pacific.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2015 11:58 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2015 1:13 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 135 of 149 (766439)
08-18-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2015 3:57 PM


Re: To Dr Adequate
Hi Cat,

Cat writes:

You're basically asking how you can know that your fingernails are growing when they're the same length as they were last night - well, yeah, you're gonna have to wait more than 8 hours to notice.

My fingernails are longer now at 12:00 o'clock than they were at 8:00 AM when I ate breakfast.

Cat writes:

How complete are you looking for? Horses, whales, and humans all have a great record of the process, but its never going to be totally complete.

The horse record that RAZD has trotted out so many times has been proven to be incorrect.

Can you point me to the Whales you are referring too?

Now as far as humans the latest jaw that was found dates to 2.8 million years which would probably mean that there were humans when Lucy was here. Just food for thought.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2015 3:57 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2015 12:40 PM ICANT has responded

    
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