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Author Topic:   What's the deal with motor vehicle violations?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 196 of 239 (766755)
08-21-2015 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Dogmafood
08-20-2015 8:36 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
ProtoTypical writes:
Well, no. Most of us don't go poking around trouble and we don't walk up on strangers cars investigating. Policeman are supposed to do that.
If there is trouble then they should investigate. A burnt light or failure to signal is not a sign of criminal behaviour.
NoNukes point has the appearance of being a good one. Policemen approaching a vehicle *are* in a position of danger.
But it's important to ask *why* they're in a position of danger. It's because the car's occupants might fear arrest. But if the officer was not actually an officer and did not have the power of an officer but instead had the power of a meter maid then there would be no such fear. The worst that could happen is a ticket, and then they would go on their merry way.
And if they flee or fail to pull over, meter maids would not be authorized to pursue but would have to just call it in. At this point the police know they're dealing with a law offender (as opposed to a mere traffic offender) and could apply all appropriate caution, like having guns drawn and asking the occupants to step out of the car and lie on the ground.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Dogmafood, posted 08-20-2015 8:36 PM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 12:43 PM Percy has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 197 of 239 (766762)
08-21-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Dogmafood
08-20-2015 8:37 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
ProtoTypical writes:
A criminal means to do you harm and a minor traffic violation is in no way even remotely similar.
Hogwash. A police officer in a traffic stop has no way of knowing whether the driver means him harm or not.
ProtoTypical writes:
We don't treat people like criminals until we know that they are, in fact, criminals.
Of course we do. We arrest suspected criminals and we lock them up like criminals and we have a whole court system to determine IF they are criminals.
ProtoTypical writes:
If you can't tell that they are a criminal then I would suggest that they are not a criminal and shouldn't be treated like one.
What magical powers do you think a police officer has to tell "us" from "them" before he asks for ID? All I'm saying is that a police officer needs to assume that every stranger is a potential danger until he DOES know who it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Dogmafood, posted 08-20-2015 8:37 PM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by petrophysics1, posted 08-21-2015 9:05 PM ringo has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 198 of 239 (766765)
08-21-2015 12:03 PM


Perhaps in the near future all traffic violations will be done automatically by public surveillance cameras and each citizen will get a monthly bill.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 12:48 PM xongsmith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 239 (766770)
08-21-2015 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Percy
08-21-2015 7:28 AM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
But it's important to ask *why* they're in a position of danger. It's because the car's occupants might fear arrest. But if the officer was not actually an officer and did not have the power of an officer but instead had the power of a meter maid then there would be no such fear.
Your position is pretty speculative. What comes first, the chicken or the egg?
If I as an ordinary citizen saw what looked like a drug deal happening in a parked car, I would not go anywhere near it. I would not accept that simply because I do not have arrest powers, that the participants would not care if I saw something that would incriminate them. Maybe if there were no war on drugs, all of the guns would go away? Still, quite speculative.
Quite frankly, I don't have any problem with police conducting investigations at traffic stops based on reasonable suspicions. That may be because I live in a smallish city with an inordinately high volume of violent crime. And often those crooks seem to have guns because they need to shoot each other. But I do want the police to be held responsible for their screw ups when they gun someone down when the truth is that the police have employed a bad tactic or made some errors in judgment that got them into trouble.
And it is not just traffic stops that are the issue, it is incidents like the shooting of Tamir Rice, and the choking out of Eric Garner that I find problematic. Currently, there is zero motivation for police not to shoot whenever they feel the least bit fearful. And apparently no way to get the city to take you seriously absent something like a large Rodney King style riot.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Percy, posted 08-21-2015 7:28 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Percy, posted 08-21-2015 5:27 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 239 (766771)
08-21-2015 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by xongsmith
08-21-2015 12:03 PM


Perhaps in the near future all traffic violations will be done automatically by public surveillance cameras and each citizen will get a monthly bill.
Would you accept a ticket for DUI or reckless driving that you received in such a fashion?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by xongsmith, posted 08-21-2015 12:03 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by xongsmith, posted 08-21-2015 1:44 PM NoNukes has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 201 of 239 (766773)
08-21-2015 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by NoNukes
08-21-2015 12:48 PM


NN asks:
Would you accept a ticket for DUI or reckless driving that you received in such a fashion? {public surveillance cameras} ?
Reckless driving on film - yes. But if the driver would blow a .19 BAC, and otherwise perform absolutely everything correctly, should he or she be stopped by a cop, I'm not sure I would hammer down the law there. DD is terrible, kills & mains and stuff, but if this particular person does fine with it, *shrug*. The cameras would pick up the dangerous swerving & speeding & such that we need to stop them in their tracks - that is unacceptable. It's all about performance.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 12:48 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 3:02 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied
 Message 204 by Percy, posted 08-21-2015 6:40 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 239 (766775)
08-21-2015 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by xongsmith
08-21-2015 1:44 PM


Reckless driving on film - yes. But if the driver would blow a .19 BAC,
The idea behind DUI is to catch drunks before they hit somebody. Drunks are dangerous long before they start swerving and careening.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by xongsmith, posted 08-21-2015 1:44 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 203 of 239 (766780)
08-21-2015 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by NoNukes
08-21-2015 12:43 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
NoNukes writes:
But it's important to ask *why* they're in a position of danger. It's because the car's occupants might fear arrest. But if the officer was not actually an officer and did not have the power of an officer but instead had the power of a meter maid then there would be no such fear.
Your position is pretty speculative.
No, it's not speculative. It's a common happenstance for people to return to their cars and find a meter maid writing a ticket, and it never results in the meter maid arresting people or pulling her gun and blowing them away, nor vice versa.
What comes first, the chicken or the egg?
If this means you're concerned that people wouldn't know that they're being pulled over by a traffic maid and not a police officer, then issue them hot pink cars with hot pink lights.
If I as an ordinary citizen saw what looked like a drug deal happening in a parked car, I would not go anywhere near it. I would not accept that simply because I do not have arrest powers, that the participants would not care if I saw something that would incriminate them. Maybe if there were no war on drugs, all of the guns would go away? Still, quite speculative.
Well, now you've really lost me. Again, no, it's not speculative. Even though I don't know what you're getting at, I'll comment on the scenario you described anyway. I would hazard a guess that meter maids avoid ticketing parked cars where drug deals are going down. Traffic maids would avoid drug deals, too.
Quite frankly, I don't have any problem with police conducting investigations at traffic stops based on reasonable suspicions. That may be because I live in a smallish city with an inordinately high volume of violent crime. And often those crooks seem to have guns because they need to shoot each other. But I do want the police to be held responsible for their screw ups when they gun someone down when the truth is that the police have employed a bad tactic or made some errors in judgment that got them into trouble.
Holding the police responsible doesn't do you much good after you're dead. Traffic maids would help avoid situations where officers overreact at traffic stops and inappropriately use lethal force. The more dangerous the city the more likely this becomes. Seems like something your city could use.
And it is not just traffic stops that are the issue, it is incidents like the shooting of Tamir Rice, and the choking out of Eric Garner that I find problematic. Currently, there is zero motivation for police not to shoot whenever they feel the least bit fearful. And apparently no way to get the city to take you seriously absent something like a large Rodney King style riot.
You and I are on the same page on this one.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 12:43 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 7:12 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 204 of 239 (766782)
08-21-2015 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by xongsmith
08-21-2015 1:44 PM


Self-driving cars are going to make it a lot more difficult to detect drunk drivers, though the car could probably detect (and report) them. But if the car is driving itself, how much should it matter that the driver is drunk?
We'll soon have statistics on injuries and fatalities in cars with nascent automatic driving capabilities like self-braking and lane maintenance and so forth. If the reductions are dramatic, and it seems like they should be, then there will be incredible demand to make these features, and eventually full self-driving capability, standard.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by xongsmith, posted 08-21-2015 1:44 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 7:18 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 214 by NosyNed, posted 08-22-2015 1:17 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 239 (766785)
08-21-2015 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Percy
08-21-2015 5:27 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
No, it's not speculative. It's a common happenstance for people to return to their cars and find a meter maid writing a ticket, and it never results in the meter maid arresting people or pulling her gun and blowing them away, nor vice versa.
That's an entirely different situation with completely different dynamics. It is pretty easy to avoid the meter maid even if you were fearful that they could arrest you.
On the other hand, you don't have that kind of control when you are stopped unexpectedly while driving. Completely avoiding the person giving you a traffic ticket is not an option.
Holding the police responsible doesn't do you much good after you're dead.
Well it does not return the dead person to life, but holding the police responsible is not less of a deterrent than is any punishment for crime and I expect that such a situation would change police behavior towards the rest of it.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Percy, posted 08-21-2015 5:27 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Percy, posted 08-21-2015 10:20 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 239 (766788)
08-21-2015 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Percy
08-21-2015 6:40 PM


But if the car is driving itself, how much should it matter that the driver is drunk?
Probably depends on lots of variables including the reliability of the technology and what responsibilities the law tasks drivers with in self driving cars. The answer could vary from 'treat car owners like passengers' to 'treat the driver as if he were fully responsible for safety even if he never touches the wheel'.
Does it matter if the driver falls asleep? Maybe, or maybe not.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Percy, posted 08-21-2015 6:40 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 239 (766796)
08-21-2015 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by ringo
08-21-2015 11:43 AM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
What magical powers do you think a police officer has to tell "us" from "them" before he asks for ID? All I'm saying is that a police officer needs to assume that every stranger is a potential danger until he DOES know who it is.
I live in the US not a POS place like Canada.
I am not required in any way to give an ID or tell a policeman who I am. If you are it's because you live in a POS place. (probably why you have a higher homicide rate than Wyoming even though 59.7% of the people here have guns)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 08-21-2015 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Jon, posted 08-21-2015 9:37 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 209 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 9:45 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 211 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-21-2015 10:38 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 215 by ringo, posted 08-22-2015 11:39 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 208 of 239 (766798)
08-21-2015 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by petrophysics1
08-21-2015 9:05 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
(probably why you have a higher homicide rate than Wyoming even though 59.7% of the people here have guns)
In Wyoming, doesn't that amount to less than one full person?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by petrophysics1, posted 08-21-2015 9:05 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 239 (766799)
08-21-2015 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by petrophysics1
08-21-2015 9:05 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
I am not required in any way to give an ID or tell a policeman who I am.
The context of ringo's statement was the situation for drivers at traffic stops.
To wit:
ringo writes:
Hogwash. A police officer in a traffic stop has no way of knowing whether the driver means him harm or not.
In most states, yeah you are required to produce your driver's license (and registration and proof of insurance) when you are stopped at a traffic stop and are requested to do so by police. If Wyoming does not do that, they are an unusual state.
I am not required in any way to give an ID or tell a policeman who I am. If you are it's because you live in a POS place.
Yeah, if you mean POS places like Arizona, Indiana, Louisiana, and Nevada each of which require you to identify yourself when asked by police. Three of those (i.e. Arizona, Indiana, and Louisiana apply criminal penalties just for refusing to give your name when asked by police.
Stop and identify statutes - Wikipedia

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by petrophysics1, posted 08-21-2015 9:05 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 210 of 239 (766803)
08-21-2015 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by NoNukes
08-21-2015 7:12 PM


Re: Police at Risk in Traffic Stops
NoNukes writes:
That's an entirely different situation with completely different dynamics. It is pretty easy to avoid the meter maid even if you were fearful that they could arrest you.
That's an entirely different situation with completely different dynamics. It is pretty easy to avoid the meter maid even if you were fearful that they could arrest you.
You're not getting this somehow. Meter maids cannot arrest you, and the proposal is that neither could traffic maids. Traffic maids would be as easy to avoid as meter maids - if you don't want to stop then don't stop - the traffic maid will not pursue. She'll call it in and the real police will stop you, and likely arrest you. Traffic maids wouldn't be looking for non-traffic violations. They'd be non-threatening. Like meter maids.
I'm not sure what the problem is. I'm not saying traffic maids would be identical to meter maids. I'm saying they'd be similar to meter maids in that they're non-threatening.
Well it does not return the dead person to life, but holding the police responsible is not less of a deterrent than is any punishment for crime and I expect that such a situation would change police behavior towards the rest of it.
Let me quote you back to you:
quote:
Currently, there is zero motivation for police not to shoot whenever they feel the least bit fearful. And apparently no way to get the city to take you seriously absent something like a large Rodney King style riot.
Not much of a deterrent.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 7:12 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 11:03 PM Percy has replied

  
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