Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 116 (8752 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-28-2017 12:34 PM
121 online now:
Coyote, DrJones*, PaulK, XJTA (4 members, 117 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: DeliverUsFromEvolution
Post Volume:
Total: 809,160 Year: 13,766/21,208 Month: 3,248/3,605 Week: 34/556 Day: 34/54 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
910
11
121314Next
Author Topic:   How does a flood ...
Admin
Director
Posts: 12504
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 151 of 206 (781662)
04-06-2016 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
04-06-2016 10:13 AM


Moderator Clarification
Faith writes:

I suspect you are a club of one in your belief about two floods in the Bible. You've never mentioned anyone else who shares that understanding.

Jar can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe he thinks the Bible describes two separate floods. I think he meant that the Bible contains two separate accounts of the flood that are mutually inconsistent.

Also, reducing the Flood to ONE LAYER of the strata is beyond absurd.

Again, Jar can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe he's interpreting the flood scenario as depositing a single layer. I think he's saying the layers of a global flood should be distinctly different from those above deposited later by the gradual sedimentary processes that are ongoing today.

Let me also clarify Jar's point involving "180 degrees." By "180 degrees" Jar means 180 degrees of longitude around the globe, in other words, the opposite side of the globe from the ark's final resting spot. He's saying that geologic layers from the 4500 years or so since the flood should contain evidence of life radiating out from that spot to gradually repopulate the globe.

Please, no replies to this message, except for Jar if I've mistaken his meaning.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 10:13 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 04-06-2016 10:44 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28840
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 152 of 206 (781663)
04-06-2016 10:38 AM


next question
How does any Biblical flood story explain the fact the there are layers where only sea life is found while higher layers show both land and sea life?

How does a world-wide flood sort out just sea life in one layer but show sea and land based life in a higher layer?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28840
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 153 of 206 (781665)
04-06-2016 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Admin
04-06-2016 10:37 AM


Re: Moderator Clarification
You are correct in both cases. I have specifically and repeatedly pointed out that there are two mutually exclusive Bible tales about a world-wide flood that have been mushed together and interestingly, not redacted to resolve the contradictions.

Why relatively intelligent editors kept both tales is as interesting as why they placed the younger more recent creation myth before the older one, but those are for other threads.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Admin, posted 04-06-2016 10:37 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15929
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 154 of 206 (781667)
04-06-2016 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Faith
04-06-2016 9:02 AM


Re: Strata in South Africa
I think Pressie took "worldwide strata" to mean strata that were worldwide, not that there are strata all over the world. Just as one would take "global corporations" to imply corporations having branches in many continents, rather than a number of different corporations which didn't, but which collectively existed in many continents.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 9:02 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 4:06 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15929
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 155 of 206 (781668)
04-06-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
04-05-2016 10:52 PM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
Gpsh it's amazing how many billions of creatures of all ages did so all at once ...

But there's no evidence for that.

Suddenly buried organisms would be intact you say? What an odd idea. These were apparently carried along in the rising ocean water before being deposited. Some tossing about going on there no doubt, as well as probably getting munched on by various sea creatures that continued to be alive at the moment.

Well, of those that are not intact, what would lead us to think that they were suddenly buried at all?

Abe: Tides NORMALLY don't rise that high, but we're talking about a one-time worldwide catastrophic rising of all the water in the oceans.

Sure, but the extra rises in sea-level that are tides are caused by the gravitational pull of the moon. Do you propose that this changed during the Flood?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 04-05-2016 10:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15929
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 156 of 206 (781670)
04-06-2016 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
04-05-2016 10:38 PM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
Why should there be time periods at all, let alone time periods marked by a particular kind of sediment with a particular kind of fossil contents? That alone makes no sense. You are NOT going to get anything like that out of the era WE live in. Look at the current surface of the earth. It is NOT going to flatten down to a slab of some particular kind of sediment that spans the world EVER.

But the sediments in the geological record are not all of a single kind for a single time either.

If the flood model accounts for the "fact" that they are, then the flood model is wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 04-05-2016 10:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by jar, posted 04-06-2016 12:00 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 4:10 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15929
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 157 of 206 (781672)
04-06-2016 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
04-06-2016 6:43 AM


Re: Flood model
Insisting on the time explanation just makes you an Old Earther, it says nothing to explain how the fossils would have been sorted in the Flood. Since sediments would have been sorted according to Walther's Law ...

That's not actually being "sorted" though, is it? The sediments weren't arranged, they just lay where they fell.

... and the dead things would have been carried within those sediments, which we know by the fact that there are particular fossils contained in particular rocks, it appears they were also sorted, but what the principle of their sorting might be isn't knowable at this point.

But that is a huge omission of anything pretending to be a theory, Faith. Huge, monstrous, glaring. It would be captious to ask you to account for every rock, but if you can't begin to account for the fossil record, that's a whole class of things that you can't account for and real geology can account for.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 6:43 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28840
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 158 of 206 (781673)
04-06-2016 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Dr Adequate
04-06-2016 11:51 AM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
DrA writes:

But the sediments in the geological record are not all of a single kind for a single time either.

Nor do I suggest that the layers above the flood or even the flood layer itself should be a single kind, BUT if either of the Biblical flood stories were true then there must be a sterile level above the flood level that is devoid of any life forms with another layer above that sterile layer where we see life returning. In addition the depths of the sterile layer should be lower close to the place from whence new life originates, in the case of the Biblical flood myths that would be landing site of the ark.

In fact there must be an even more detailed series of layers since plants would spread fastest then flying critters with the larger mammals coming last and that too should be reflected in the layers above the flood layer.

Change leaves evidence and world-wide change must leave world-wide evidence.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2016 11:51 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3801
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 159 of 206 (781688)
04-06-2016 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
04-06-2016 10:13 AM


Re: what must be seen
In any case, if you are going to impose on me your own interpretation of the Bible which I absolutely reject, ...

You want to do that yourself, eh?

... perhaps discussion is simply impossible and I should opt out of this thread.

Well, a discussion implies that you would consider what your counterpart is saying. Flat rejection does kind of kill conversation.

Knowing how bizarre and singular your view of the Bible is, is the reason I didn't join this thread when it was originally posted, and hesitated this time too. What's the point? You have an invented Bible and and invented Christianity and I adhere to the real one.

I believe what Jar is trying to say is that, not only is the YEC interpretation incorrect, but the Bible itself is contradictory.

Also, reducing the Flood to ONE LAYER of the strata is beyond absurd.

I don't believe that anyone intends do so so. Anyone with a modicum of geological experience knows that rock layers come in (recognizable) packages.

The problem here is that there is no discernible package that looks like a rising and lowering global flood. On the other hand, we do see regional and even continental flooding occurring many times in the geological record.

Compounding your error is the fact that at virtually no point in the geological record can we ascertain a period when there was no land mass that was being eroded. Evidence to that effect is the presence of beach sands, swamps, lakes and a host of other land-type deposits. After all if there is no beach, how do you get beach sands?

Now, if we can see numerous large marine encroachments (look up 'cyclothems') on land during say the Devonian of Pennsylvania, why can we not see something that is as major as the Biblical flood?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 10:13 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 4:19 PM edge has responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3801
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 160 of 206 (781689)
04-06-2016 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
04-06-2016 8:53 AM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
You have a false idea of the Flood. It's no wonder if there is no evidence for YOUR idea of the Flood since it couldn't have happened. Your expectations of what would constitute evidence are ridiculous.

Please give us some evidence that is diagnostic of a biblical flood and not a regional or local flood. In other words, how do you know that a flood is global? Have you traced the strata around the world?

The actual evidence has been given. Worldwide strata indicating worldwide water deposition according to Walther's Law, worldwide fossils indicating worldwide death by water.

First of all Walther's Law applies to all rising and lower of sea level.

Secondly, what do you mean by 'death by water'? Most of the fossils in the fossil record are marine.

If it's not good enough for you that's not surprising since you have unreasonable expectations and the usual assumptions of those hostile to the idea of the ONE Biblical Flood..

Actually, the hostility is directed a the militant YECs rather than their flood per se. Rejection does not mean hostility.

The actual evidence has been given.

As I've said many times the evidence you present is also evidence for mainstream geology. What you need is a way to tell them apart. We have given you some ideas here, but you seem to ignore those possibilities.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 8:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 161 of 206 (781692)
04-06-2016 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Dr Adequate
04-06-2016 11:36 AM


Re: Strata in South Africa
The entire geological column isn't everywhere, true, and South Africa seems to have an extremely short stack of layers for some reason, -- Australia's are also rather short, so perhaps most of them washed away in the deep southern hemisphere or the deposition methods were different for some reason -- but what interested me was whether there was any place on earth where strata didn't form at all and I didn't find any, though my research was not exhaustive.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2016 11:36 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-06-2016 4:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1465
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 162 of 206 (781693)
04-06-2016 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
04-06-2016 7:51 AM


Faith writes:

I'm talking about the OE theory that geologists carry around with them everywhere. It colors everything they study, which is only to be expected.

So close, but no.

Geologists study the Earth. Everything they study is evidence of an old Earth. Everything they study colors the theory, which is to be expected.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 7:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 163 of 206 (781694)
04-06-2016 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Dr Adequate
04-06-2016 11:51 AM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
Yes there are some time periods that are marked by more than one layer, and some of the layers are mixtures but not many, and the overall fact remains that the geologic column is characterized by discreet separate sediments, each time period marked by its own sediment or sediments, and that is what makes no sense.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2016 11:51 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2016 4:15 PM Faith has responded
 Message 166 by PaulK, posted 04-06-2016 4:17 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15929
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 164 of 206 (781695)
04-06-2016 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
04-06-2016 4:10 PM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
Yes there are some time periods that are marked by more than one layer, and some of the layers are mixtures but not many, and the overall fact remains that the geologic column is characterized by discreet separate sediments, each time period marked by its own sediment or sediments, and that is what makes no sense.

The reason it makes no sense is that you made it up. Things that you make up usually make no sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 4:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 4:17 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 165 of 206 (781696)
04-06-2016 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Dr Adequate
04-06-2016 4:15 PM


Re: Events seen round the world --- change leaves evidence
Do you need me to post some of the hundreds of charts of the geologic column to prove I didn't make it up?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2016 4:15 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2016 8:13 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
910
11
121314Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017