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Author Topic:   As I Suspected...
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 57 (766307)
08-16-2015 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by caffeine
08-16-2015 1:47 PM


Re: Real Problems Need Real Solutions
It's not only that they haven't been effective; it's that they never will be.
Their goal is to make black lives matter. Have you read their list of demands?
Similarly, the legislation you're demanding to see the obvious benefits from was signed into law 37 days ago. Patience might seem reasonable.
I don't expect a list of statistics; but I think anyone suggesting that the legislation will make black lives matter might be able to show the mechanism by which it would do that.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 08-16-2015 3:43 PM Jon has replied
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 32 of 57 (766308)
08-16-2015 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Jon
08-16-2015 3:34 PM


Re: Real Problems Need Real Solutions
Jon writes:
Their goal is to make black lives matter. Have you read their list of demands?
I googled one:
quote:
We demand an end to all forms of discrimination and the full recognition of our human rights.
We demand an immediate end to police brutality and the murder of Black people and all oppressed people.
We demand full, living-wage employment for our people.
We demand decent housing fit for the shelter of human beings and an end to gentrification.
We demand an end to the school to prison pipeline & quality education for all.
We demand freedom from mass incarceration and an end to the prison industrial complex.
We demand a racial justice agenda from the White House that is inclusive of our shared fate as Black men, women, trans and gender-nonconforming people. Not My Brother's Keeper, but Our Children's Keeper.
We demand access to affordable healthy food for our neighborhoods.
We demand an aggressive attack against all laws, policies, and entities that disenfranchise any community from expressing themselves at the ballot.
We demand a public education system that teaches the rich history of Black people and celebrates the contributions we have made to this country and the world.
We demand the release of all U.S. political prisoners.
We demand an end to the military industrial complex that incentivizes private corporations to profit off of the death and destruction of Black and Brown communities across the globe. link
Seriously, you don't think an end to the murder of black people will make black lives better? You don't think full employment will make black lives better? You don't think decent housing will make lives better?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 08-16-2015 3:34 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Jon, posted 08-16-2015 4:12 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 57 (766309)
08-16-2015 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by NoNukes
08-16-2015 2:11 PM


Re: Real Problems Need Real Solutions
To compare BLM to King is to really have no shame.
Aside from involving black folk, the two couldn't be more different.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 57 (766310)
08-16-2015 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
08-16-2015 3:43 PM


Re: Real Problems Need Real Solutions
Wanting things doesn't improve the lives of anyone...

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 35 of 57 (766315)
08-16-2015 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Jon
08-16-2015 3:34 PM


Re: Real Problems Need Real Solutions
Their goal is to make black lives matter.
My take is that their main goal is to increase public awareness of the issues. I think they have been quite successful at that.
It takes years, perhaps generations, for there to be widespread cultural changes in the culture. Raising awareness is the first step.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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 Message 31 by Jon, posted 08-16-2015 3:34 PM Jon has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 36 of 57 (766318)
08-17-2015 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jon
08-16-2015 9:44 AM


Re: Real Problems Need Real Solutions
Jon responds to me:
quote:
You still offer nothing.
You still hear nothing.
quote:
If you could demonstrate the effectiveness of BLM on even one issue capable of actually improving the live of African Americans, you would have done so by now.
Except you have been given examples. Laws have been passed. Sanders has brought BLM into his campaign.
You seem to be of the opinion that unless things change immediately, there is no "effectiveness" to be had. Do you really think that centuries of racism are going to be changed in a year? And on top of that, BLM is just the latest in a long line of protests going back to King and before. Do you really not understand this? That you and I are even talking about this is "effectiveness."
Time for you to indicate what it is you would accept as "effectiveness."

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 37 of 57 (766333)
08-17-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Jon
08-16-2015 4:12 PM


Re: Real Problems Need Real Solutions
Jon writes:
Wanting things doesn't improve the lives of anyone...
Wanting things is the first step on the path to getting them.
What they want seems pretty reasonable. What the @#$% is your problem?

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 57 (766801)
08-21-2015 10:09 PM


Why BLM Makes Things Worse
Breaking this off from the What's the deal with motor vehicle violations? thread:
quote:
NoNukes in Message 199 in What's the deal with motor vehicle violations?:
And it is not just traffic stops that are the issue, it is incidents like the shooting of Tamir Rice, and the choking out of Eric Garner that I find problematic. Currently, there is zero motivation for police not to shoot whenever they feel the least bit fearful. And apparently no way to get the city to take you seriously ...
If these movements want to be taken seriously, a good place to start would be for the people involved in the police 'mistreatment' to not be criminals, thugs, or hooligans.
It's hard to get anyone serious to rally behind you when you're boohooing about the police getting a little too rough or trigger-happy with a bunch of crooks and troublemakers.
Interestingly, there are examples of police unprovokingly injuring, killing, or harassing completely innocent people:
quote:
"Story of 12-Yr Old Girl Beaten by Cops Mistaken as Prostitute Will Leave You Disturbed" from MemphisRap.com:
Emily Milburn, Dymond's mother was reportedly getting her kids ready for school for the next day when their electricity suddenly cut off and she sent her daughter Dymond outside to switch the breaker.
Upon going outside, Dymond was approached by men who jumped out of a blue van, grabbing her calling her a prostitute saying "you're coming with me."
Resisting, Dymond grabbed onto a tree as the men were pulling her as she yelled "daddy, daddy."
As the father came out on the balcony from hearing his daughter's cries for help, he saw Dymond being beaten over the head by two men as another man (their supervisor) looked on.
The men were plain clothed cops that the parents approached yelling, 'that's our twelve year-old daughter' while one cop, officer David Roark had his hand over their daughter's mouth reportedly responding that he didn't care if she was 22 or 32.
The officers, including Justin Popovich and Sean Stewart, along with their supervisor Sgt. Gilbert Gomez, dragged Dymond Milburn into their van right before her parents' very eyes.
At some point, obviously realizing their mistake, the police officers dropped Dymond off at a hospital where a physician found multiple injuries to Dymond's head including her face, neck, shoulders, back and other areas.
Reportedly struck by a flashlight by one of the cops, Dymond also suffered a contusion on the back of her head.
Dymond had a swollen throat and was hoarse, nauseated and suffered difficulty swallowing due to strikes to her throat.
So why didn't an event like this prompt days' worth of protesting? Where were the marches in the street? Where were the outcries?
For this poor defenseless girl, the outcries were eerily absent. Yet we can't stop hearing about gun-toting Tamir and store-burglar Brown.
Black-rights activists of today seem to have the strange habit of standing up for the bad guys and ignoring the good guys. It's little wonder racial divisions are growing wider in this country. Something's gone seriously wrong with the modern civil rights movement. They seem to have lost the moral footing that is required to give legitimacy to social movements.
I would imagine MLK's rolling over in his grave.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2015 11:13 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 40 by Theodoric, posted 08-22-2015 12:08 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 43 by Rrhain, posted 08-25-2015 3:11 AM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 39 of 57 (766830)
08-22-2015 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jon
08-21-2015 10:09 PM


Re: Why BLM Makes Things Worse
If these movements want to be taken seriously, a good place to start would be for the people involved in the police 'mistreatment' to not be criminals, thugs, or hooligans.
History suggests that scope of the rights you currently enjoy were vindicated during the prosecution of criminals. That's why you have miranda rights and why confessions that are rubber hosed out of you at the police station are not admissible.
Besides that, it turns out that lots of people (you excepted) see something particularly tragic in a 12 year old having his life snuffed out a couple of seconds after the police show up. A 12 year old with a toy gun isn't a hooligan of any note.
I accept that you, personally, don't give a crap about the lives of black people who are selling cigarettes illegally, but that tradeoff of life vs property is one of the issues in 'Black lives matter'.
BLM protests do indeed fall on your deaf ears, but who gives a crap what you think.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 40 of 57 (766838)
08-22-2015 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jon
08-21-2015 10:09 PM


Re: Why BLM Makes Things Worse
Criminals and hooligans have rights too. Why do you think you deserve more rights?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 08-21-2015 10:09 PM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 57 (766855)
08-22-2015 4:30 PM


Priorities Matter
The point is not that you can't or shouldn't demand rights for potential criminals; the point is that it is oddly suspect to only demand rights for those people while ignoring the rights of completely innocent twelve-year-old girls to walk outside without being beaten half to death by police who think she's a hooker despite knowing ahead of time that they were looking for white women.
The decision to protest in the names of folks such as Tamir Rice or Michael Brown while hardly having a word to say about poor Dymond Milburn speaks to the underlying values of the BLM movement: that thugs who wave guns around in a park or refuse to follow basic laws matter more than completely innocent children.
The case of Dymond Milburn is such a clear example of police racism and vicious brutality, yet it is not for her sake BLM protests. Over her there is silence.
But that's no surprise and is as I suspected, since it's clear to any reasonable observer that BLM is just a clever cover for hooligans and thugs, people who cannot even imagine identifying with someone like Dymond and are really only interested in protecting their own anarchist subgroup of the population who glorify lawlessness and resistance to everything decent.
To try to equate or connect such people to MLK is shameful.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 42 of 57 (766856)
08-22-2015 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Jon
08-22-2015 4:30 PM


Re: Priorities Matter
If the point is to stop unjustified killings, then the movement needs to use examples of unjustified killings.

This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 43 of 57 (766996)
08-25-2015 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jon
08-21-2015 10:09 PM


Re: Why BLM Makes Things Worse
Jon writes:
quote:
If these movements want to be taken seriously, a good place to start would be for the people involved in the police 'mistreatment' to not be criminals, thugs, or hooligans.
And you wonder why you keep getting called out for your privilege for that is a statement that comes from a place of privilege.
In the US, about one-third of all black males will spend some time in prison at some point during his lifetime. In New York City, during the stop-and-frisk period, more incidents of stop-and-frisk were carried out on young black men than there were young black men in the city (168K stops versus only 158K individuals). In Brownsville, Brooklyn in 2009, 93% of the entire population was stopped by the police.
Thus, to complain that the people being killed by the cops are "criminals, thugs, or hooligans" is to ignore the very racism that resulted in those people being "criminals, thugs, or hooligans" in the first place.
And your invocation of MLK is very telling.
Edited by Rrhain, : Incorrect attribution

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 08-21-2015 10:09 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2015 3:51 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 47 by Jon, posted 08-26-2015 7:10 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 44 of 57 (766998)
08-25-2015 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Rrhain
08-25-2015 3:11 AM


Re: Why BLM Makes Things Worse
RrHain writes:
Tangle writes:
No he doesn't.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(1)
Message 45 of 57 (767100)
08-26-2015 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Tangle
08-25-2015 3:51 AM


Re: Why BLM Makes Things Worse
My apologies. I've corrected the attribution.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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