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Author Topic:   Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11638
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 346 of 424 (767946)
09-03-2015 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Faith
09-03-2015 7:54 PM


I didn't address my post to you.

I addressed my post to you.

As I already said you can't use one scripture against another and Peter would agree.

I'm not using scripture at all, it just says what it says.

"Obey the laws and be nice."

Funny how that's too much to ask...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 7:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 8:14 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 347 of 424 (767949)
09-03-2015 8:08 PM


Scripture vs scripture
Of course you can counter scripture with scripture. The most famous example in the entire Bible is of Jesus citing Deuteronomy in response to the tempter citing Psalms 91.

Tempter: "For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."

Jesus: "It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the LORD thy God."


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 25772
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 348 of 424 (767950)
09-03-2015 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by NoNukes
09-03-2015 8:08 PM


Re: Scripture vs scripture
It would be tempting if he'd intentionally put himself in harm's way. There is no contradiction otherwise.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2015 8:08 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25772
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 349 of 424 (767951)
09-03-2015 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by New Cat's Eye
09-03-2015 7:57 PM


You apparently forgot the scripture I already quoted, even said by Peter as well, that "we ought to obey God rather than man." You can't put the other one above this one. Both are true. Scripture has to be read in context, in the light of every other scripture.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-03-2015 7:57 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 350 of 424 (767952)
09-03-2015 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Faith
09-03-2015 7:24 PM


Faith writes:

Just because she knew in advance that she couldn't go along with the law before it happened does not mean she did anything to "set this up" in advance. That's pernicious nonsense.

Well, that's herpetic hornswoggle, Faith.

She knew full well she likely wouldn't fulfill her oath of office when she took it. She was already resolved to assert that her religious beliefs trumped the law. She has declared herself (literally) a vessel of God's will: I thought he preferred the devout to self-righteous, thrice-divorced mothers of two out-of-wedlock kids.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. For a pagan.

You've previously argued she never in her wildest dreams imagined she'd have to issue licenses to gays; so has Ms. Davis and her lawyers. They lied. I guess you believed them, though you should know by now that nobody lies like an evangelical Christian in a public policy debate.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 7:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 10:18 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3868
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 351 of 424 (767956)
09-03-2015 9:26 PM


New York Times on other refusal to issue licenses :

Http://www.nytimes.com/...davis-denies-marriage-license.html


  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25772
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 352 of 424 (767963)
09-03-2015 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Omnivorous
09-03-2015 8:34 PM


When she took the oath? When was that?

Also much is being made of her divorces but I haven't followed the history of her life so I don't know if those preceded or followed her conversion to Christ. Although we are all unfortunately still susceptible to sin after conversion, some of us come to Christ with a lot of sin baggage already dragging behind us. He saves sinners, remember? That doesn't make the sin disappear.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Omnivorous, posted 09-03-2015 8:34 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Omnivorous, posted 09-03-2015 10:27 PM Faith has responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 353 of 424 (767964)
09-03-2015 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Faith
09-03-2015 10:18 PM


You mean her oath to uphold the law? Sometime in 2014, the year of her election.

The comment came from a neighbor and supporter out to reinforce Davis' claim of religious sincerity in an NPR interview--as if that mattered.

Even during the campaign, she knew her oath was worthless.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 10:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 10:31 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25772
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 354 of 424 (767965)
09-03-2015 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Omnivorous
09-03-2015 10:27 PM


You are making a lot of unwarranted assertions and accusations but I haven't yet seen you say anything to prove that she "knew" she was going to be in the position of disobeying her oath. It wasn't until a few months before the SCOTUS ruling that any of us started to see what was coming. So where are you getting your certainty about her frame of mind. You're a mind-reader now? Or perhaps, like the rest of us, she could see what was brewing but hoped against hope it wouldn't go against Christians. BUT AGAIN, it doesn't matter. If a law violates God's law, that law must be disobeyed.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Omnivorous, posted 09-03-2015 10:27 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 355 of 424 (767968)
09-03-2015 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
09-03-2015 10:31 PM


How odd. I'm getting my certainty about her frame of mind from her own statements.

When you campaign for office already resolving aloud to ignore laws you don't like, then swear to uphold all the laws without favor or bias, you were lying--even before you lie about never imagining it could happen. She feared it would happen and had made up her mind to defy the law before taking the contradictory oath.

QED

All the hand-waving in the world won't change that


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 10:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 10:55 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25772
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 356 of 424 (767969)
09-03-2015 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Omnivorous
09-03-2015 10:53 PM


You are referring to information I'm not up on. All I can say is so what. She anticipated a conflict and she took the chance anyway. So what.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Omnivorous, posted 09-03-2015 10:53 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Omnivorous, posted 09-03-2015 10:58 PM Faith has responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 357 of 424 (767970)
09-03-2015 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Faith
09-03-2015 10:55 PM


You're right. She's just another liar for Jesus.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 10:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 11:12 PM Omnivorous has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25772
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 358 of 424 (767971)
09-03-2015 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Omnivorous
09-03-2015 10:58 PM


There's no lie involved.

Here's an explanation of why Davis is almost alone in her defiance:

Despite many loud proclamations of defiance after the ruling, the vast majority of counties have accepted the law.

One little-known and controversial practice might be behind some of this unexpected compliance. In Utah, North Carolina, Texas and other states, local governments are shifting responsibilities so that employees who object to gay marriage do not have to be involved with wedding licenses at all. In this scenario, the objectors co-workers or other government officials rotate to handle the task, allowing clerks who object to fade into the background and not participate.

In fact, this might be what happens in Daviss case: Late Thursday afternoon, five of her deputy clerks offered to begin issuing marriage licensing, a move that could save her from jail.

They wont be the only clerks covering for their bosses. Hood County Clerk Katie Lang denied a marriage license to a same-sex couple in Texas several times after the Supreme Court ruling. But after the pair filed a federal lawsuit, their licenses were quickly granted. Lang released a statement saying she would personally refrain from issuing them, but that other people in her office would do so instead.

These kinds of personal exemptions have flourished elsewhere, as well.

HERE'S THE STORY


This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Omnivorous, posted 09-03-2015 10:58 PM Omnivorous has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2908
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 359 of 424 (767977)
09-04-2015 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by Faith
09-03-2015 11:12 PM


But at the end, just exactly whose signature is on those documents?

In most government offices, it's the elected/appointed official whose signature is placed on all documents going through that office, regardless of whatever sub-official actually performed the actual transaction.

Admittedly, I don't know the procedural riggoramo ... er ... officious BS wording that must be used officially. OK, I am relying on my USAF Leadership School training here. Who has the authority to sign off on anything? Where did that person derive his/her authority from? In our USAF command's Leadership School, we suffered through a long and tortuous lecture that started with the Constitution of the United States of America and meticulously traced down to the authority of a non-commissioned officer (NCO) to issue orders to his subordinates.

There was something else that we were taught. We not only could delegate authority, but we were actually required to do so, so that our subordinates could discharge the duties that we had delegated to them. At the same time, we could never delegate responsibility. We were still responsible for what our subordinates did.

Now that Davis is imprisoned as is appropriate, her subordinates are issuing marriage licenses. Whose name appears on those licenses? In whose authority are those subordinates acting? What difference exists?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Faith, posted 09-03-2015 11:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Faith, posted 09-04-2015 1:54 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25772
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 360 of 424 (767978)
09-04-2015 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by dwise1
09-04-2015 1:44 AM


I really don't know what point you are trying to make. My point is very simple: if ANY human law, doesn't matter what its source, contradicts God, a Christian must disobey that law. Period.

You can render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, you can't render unto Caesar what is God's.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2015 2:28 AM Faith has not yet responded
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