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Author Topic:   Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?
Faith
Member
Posts: 26270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 391 of 424 (768418)
09-11-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by ringo
09-11-2015 1:08 PM


What I already said. You don't know what you are talking about.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by ringo, posted 09-11-2015 1:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by ringo, posted 09-11-2015 1:25 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 392 of 424 (768421)
09-11-2015 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Faith
09-11-2015 1:10 PM


Faith writes:

What I already said. You don't know what you are talking about.


What you already said does nothing to address the point. Your theology is made up. It isn't Biblical.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Faith, posted 09-11-2015 1:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 09-11-2015 8:04 PM ringo has responded

  
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1372
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 393 of 424 (768440)
09-11-2015 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by dwise1
09-10-2015 11:06 PM


dwise1 writes:

I don't doubt that many of the early Christian martyrs did not wish for their fates, but there were also those who did go out of their way to achieve martyrdom. And we still see that mania for martyrdom today. And it's so strong that they still go out of their way to make it happen.


And there's Origen who wanted to go off to be martyred with his father, but his mother prevented it by hiding his clothes.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. Erwin Schroedinger


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Faith
Member
Posts: 26270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 394 of 424 (768449)
09-11-2015 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by ringo
09-11-2015 1:25 PM


Yes, it is Biblical, and again you don't know what you are talking about.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by ringo, posted 09-11-2015 1:25 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by ringo, posted 09-12-2015 11:40 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 395 of 424 (768459)
09-12-2015 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by kbertsche
08-28-2015 9:09 PM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
I missed this earlier post but it's raising the same objections others are raising so I guess I should try to answer it.


The SCOTUS ruling and the Christian casualties as a result of it are the beginning of the attack on Christianity which is only going to get worse and worse in this country. Which I think is what that wager was about with Dr. Adequate. We can wait for more examples but it's already begun.

But how is this fundamentally any different than other issues that we may disagree with as Christians? What about an OBGYN nurse when the doctor she works for recommends abortion? What about bureaucrats who are asked to issue divorce papers for frivolous reasons? What about hotel staff who are expected to rent rooms to unmarried couples?
I don't see that gay marriage is fundamentally any different than these other issues. The change that it made is quantitative, not qualitative.

Apparently many don't see the difference, and with all these cases coming up I do keep thinking, Wow, we should be protesting a lot more stuff than we are.

But there is nevertheless a difference. Gay marriage is not just a garden-variety sin, as I keep trying to say. It's not the sin of divorce or the sin of fornication or cohabitation without marriage. If I were a Christian OBGYN nurse I couldn't support a doctor's recommendation of abortion but I don't know how Christian nurses deal with such situations. Something to think about.

HOWEVER, gay marriage isn't just a sin against a specific law of God, it's a rewriting of God's law, a complete alteration of God's ordinance of marriage. In the other cases we know the law and we know the sin against it. In this case we're changing the law to obscure the whole category of sin. It goes with redefining homosexuality as not a sin but a normal sexual variation.

That's how I've been thinking of it anyway. I suppose if someone asked me to as a baker to make a cake to celebrate someone's occasion of adultery and have it sent to the hotel room I'd have a problem with that, but that isn't going to happen, is it?

If you rewrote the Ten Commandments to say Adultery is Permitted, Stealing is Permitted, Murder is Permitted, that's more like what is implied in this new law of Gay Marriage though it's still not quite a perfect definition.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by PaulK, posted 09-12-2015 2:04 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 397 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2015 3:41 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 405 by Porosity, posted 09-12-2015 5:00 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13110
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 396 of 424 (768460)
09-12-2015 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by Faith
09-12-2015 1:45 AM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
quote:

If you rewrote the Ten Commandments to say Adultery is Permitted, Stealing is Permitted, Murder is Permitted, that's more like what is implied in this new law of Gay Marriage though it's still not quite a perfect definition.

Of course,no law is being rewritten. It is simply that the law of the land disagrees with the rules of your religion. In that sense it is no different than the example you omitted -"Worship of other gods is permitted". Which is also the law of the land and has been since the Bill of Rights was passed.

The real reason, of course, is that "Christians" wish to place themselves above the law, or the rules of employers. For many years they have gotten away with claiming privileges that the law does not permit. But this has been slowly changing and every loss is met by howls of outrage.

Gay marriage is a victory for liberty and justice over the hate and lies of the "Christian" right. Of course they hate it! They threw everything they could at trying to stop it and still they failed. Well tough. They can just accept that they are not entitled to special privileges. That they don't get to override laws they don't like. And if they can't stand that the too bad for them.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 397 of 424 (768472)
09-12-2015 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by Faith
09-12-2015 1:45 AM


Faith Still Trying To Square The Circle
HOWEVER, gay marriage isn't just a sin against a specific law of God, it's a rewriting of God's law, a complete alteration of God's ordinance of marriage. In the other cases we know the law and we know the sin against it. In this case we're changing the law to obscure the whole category of sin. It goes with redefining homosexuality as not a sin but a normal sexual variation.

And this will lead to worse things: people working on Saturday, for example, without being stoned to death for it. The open practice of usury. One shudders to think.

If you rewrote the Ten Commandments to say Adultery is Permitted, Stealing is Permitted, Murder is Permitted, that's more like what is implied in this new law of Gay Marriage though it's still not quite a perfect definition.

The law does say that adultery is permitted. Also not honoring your father and mother, the worship of false gods, the ownership of idols, taking the Lord's name in vain and working on Saturday, and you can covet what you like. It's already happened. And Christians make about as big a fuss over that as they did with that massive campaign to abolish usury which we all have heard so much about.

Gay marriage is not just a garden-variety sin, as I keep trying to say. It's not the sin of divorce or the sin of fornication or cohabitation without marriage.

Ah yes, "garden-variety sins". While this term sees its fullest theological development in St. Augustine's treatise, Pfft, Adultery Ain't So Bad, the concept it has its origins in St. Paul's Epistle To Them There Faggots:

For even among those who love the LORD, even my brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, there is fornication, and adultery, and breaking of the divine commandments with unholy acts.

And truly I say unto you, this is no biggie. I mean, who really careth about that stuff, be honest? It's not like being one of them there faggots. Or lezzers. Ew.


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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13110
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 398 of 424 (768473)
09-12-2015 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2015 3:41 AM


Re: Faith Still Trying To Square The Circle
It's funny how recognising "demonic" Hinduism as a valid religion, and it's adherents as entitled to accommodations respecting their religious beliefs is acceptable. Apparently Faith sees worshipping demons is the "good" sort of sin that deserves public acceptance and support, unlike gay sex.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 399 of 424 (768569)
09-12-2015 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by PaulK
09-12-2015 2:04 AM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
PaulK writes:

In that sense it is no different than the example you omitted -"Worship of other gods is permitted".

Of course the Bible also says "worship of other gods is permitted" although only under proscribed conditions like common courtesy.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by PaulK, posted 09-12-2015 2:04 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 400 of 424 (768582)
09-12-2015 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Faith
09-11-2015 8:04 PM


Faith writes:

Yes, it is Biblical, and again you don't know what you are talking about.


You have the same problem with the Bible as you have with science - you won't accept the evidence. I have shown what is Biblical and you deny it. And as usual, the only argument you have is denial.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 09-11-2015 8:04 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 12:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


(3)
Message 401 of 424 (768589)
09-12-2015 11:53 AM


Hey, did you hear about the atheist mailman who refuses to deliver Christmas cards?

NO, ME NEITHER.


  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26270
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 402 of 424 (768604)
09-12-2015 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by ringo
09-12-2015 11:40 AM


You have not shown what is biblical. As usual you just made up your own personal individual definition and try to impose it on two thousand years of theology to the contrary. You don't know what you are talking about but you don't care do you, anything to contradict the truth that's been hammered out for centuries. Just like jar. Make it all up but accuse US of doing that. What a shoddy bit of lying argument.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by ringo, posted 09-12-2015 11:40 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by ringo, posted 09-12-2015 12:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(3)
Message 403 of 424 (768608)
09-12-2015 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by Faith
09-12-2015 12:27 PM


Faith writes:

You have not shown what is biblical. As usual you just made up your own personal individual definition...


I've QUOTED the Bible. If the Bible isn't Biblical enough for you, what is?

Faith writes:

... two thousand years of theology to the contrary.


Ah, two thousand years of second-hand commentary is more Biblical than the Bible, in your world.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 12:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Omnivorous, posted 09-12-2015 4:29 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(2)
Message 404 of 424 (768638)
09-12-2015 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by ringo
09-12-2015 12:39 PM


ringo writes:

Ah, two thousand years of second-hand commentary is more Biblical than the Bible, in your world.

It took 2000 years of theology--and the lust for secular power--to transform Christian communities into what you see today.

Edited by Omnivorous, : -s


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by ringo, posted 09-12-2015 12:39 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
Porosity
Member
Posts: 155
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 405 of 424 (768639)
09-12-2015 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Faith
09-12-2015 1:45 AM


Re: Clerk refuses to issue marriage license to gays
Typical massive hypocrisy from a cherry picken evangelical.
News flash.. Abrahamic faiths don't get to define marriage and even if they did you're doing wrong!

Here is real Biblical Marriage.

quote:
Biblical marriage is a man arranging to buy a girl from her father for an agreed upon purchase price (Genesis 29:18).
Biblical marriage is a wife giving, regardless of her maid servant's wishes, her servant to her husband as a wife for sex and procreation (Genesis 16:2-3, Genesis 30:3, Genesis 30:9, etc.)
Biblical marriage is a raiding party murdering the fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters of a people but saving the young virgins because they want wives [i.e. women to capture and rape, legally] (Judges 21:10-14)
Biblical marriage is a raiding party lying in wait to capture more women as wives to legally rape (Judges 21:20-24)
Biblical marriage is a victim being forced to marry her rapist with no hope of divorce [but don't worry her father is suitably compensated in cash for the trouble, and this is only valid if the woman is not already another man's property...so relax, no property rights are violated by this arrangement!] (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
Biblical marriage is selling your daughter as a slave to be given to her owner or owner's son for sexual exploitation as a wife [though denied the minimal protections of a wife] (Exodus 21:7-11)
Biblical marriage is one man taking multiple, even hundreds, of wives and concubines (see: David, Solomon, Jacob, Abraham, etc.)
Biblical marriage is a woman as property whose own happiness is inconsequential, but whose property status is absolute (see: David and Michal)

http://www.dailykos.com/...ecause-it-isn-t-Biblical-marriage

Practice what you preach!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 1:45 AM Faith has responded

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