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Author Topic:   Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 31 of 424 (766727)
08-20-2015 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Greatest I am
08-20-2015 1:37 PM


Is there a limit to your statement?
As the old saying goes, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. You don't have the right to take another person's rights away, but as long as your religious practices do not infringe upon mine, do what you want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Greatest I am, posted 08-20-2015 1:37 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 08-20-2015 6:59 PM Taq has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 32 of 424 (766729)
08-20-2015 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Taq
08-20-2015 5:52 PM


Tag
I do and do not advocate taking away anyone's rights.
I think you might have misunderstood my post.
I was asking what your limit to live and let live was, --- as it pertains to religions, --- and gave some examples that I hoped would exceed your complacency or live and let live notions and levels.
I am not sure how or where you thought that I was advocating removing rights.
Please quote that line so that I can revise it.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Taq, posted 08-20-2015 5:52 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Taq, posted 08-21-2015 11:18 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 33 of 424 (766735)
08-20-2015 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Greatest I am
08-20-2015 1:37 PM


For the evils of religion to grow, read any scripture literally.
Do you really believe this?!? If so, can you please explain to me how a literal reading of the following Scripture causes the evils of religion to grow?
quote:
Matt. 5:43-45 You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Greatest I am, posted 08-20-2015 1:37 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Greatest I am, posted 08-20-2015 9:34 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 34 of 424 (766739)
08-20-2015 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by kbertsche
08-20-2015 8:37 PM


kbertsche
I take it that this is the pertinent part.
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Can you love your enemy?
Let me define love for you.
Love, to be true love is close to what St. James said of faith. Without works and deed, it is dead. Love to be true love also needs reciprocity. One cannot love alone.
Your enemy is not interested in reciprocal love. He is your enemy and want to do you harm. Not share love.
So can you love your enemy? No you cannot.
Socrates, if I recall, said we could love our enemy but only after making him a friend. That is not quite the same as loving our enemy.
Do you think you could stop the line of Jews moving towards the ovens that they should love the enemy that pulled their gold teeth and were about to burn them to death?
If you could then I would have no respect for you at all.
That scripture says it must be done to be one of God's children. If God would demand that then he is not fit for our respect either.
You might want to remember that God himself does not love his enemies as he had them destroyed all over the O.T.
If he cannot follow his own rule then I wish you well in trying to.
Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Do you see God following that one literally?
He has promised to condemn the vast majority of us to hell. Is hell a good thing?
I do not think so so if God does not follow his rules then they cannot be good now can they as God would always do good. Right?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by kbertsche, posted 08-20-2015 8:37 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 08-20-2015 10:10 PM Greatest I am has not replied
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 08-21-2015 11:59 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 424 (766743)
08-20-2015 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Greatest I am
08-20-2015 9:34 PM


You are evading kbertsche's point. You said any literal reading of scripture causes evils to grow, and he showed you a scripture where that isn't the case. Now you are changing the subject and making up a completely different complaint.
By the way, a Christian who was sent to a concentration camp for hiding Jews did obey the command to love her enemy. It was hard for her to do but after the war Corrie Ten Boom shook the hand of the Nazi who had persecuted her sister to death in the camp. She resisted the command at first. He had come up to her after a speech she had given to tell her he had converted to Christ. Her sister had already loved her enemy while in the camp, always being self-deprecating and kind to her persecutors.
Among other things it's a recognition that we're all human and were circumstances reversed any of us could be the persecutor, and knowing that the Nazis would suffer in Hell we hope for their repentance and salvation. That's loving your enemy.
I know of another situation. A pastor in Romania who was brought in to the authorities for interrogation which involved being beaten. His laboriously collected library of Christian books was confiscated. After he was released the interrogator told him he'd actually looked forward to seeing him because he was always loving toward him.
To love your enemy is hard for us in the flesh, it takes the special help of God to be able to do it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Greatest I am, posted 08-20-2015 9:34 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 36 of 424 (766744)
08-20-2015 11:01 PM


Religion becomes a serious problem when it uses force or law to promote its beliefs.
You can rub blue mud in your naval on alternate Thursdays for all I care, but when you try to force me to do the same or try to teach your beliefs in public schools you've crossed the line.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 08-21-2015 12:34 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 424 (766747)
08-21-2015 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Coyote
08-20-2015 11:01 PM


You can rub blue mud in your naval on alternate Thursdays for all I care, but when you try to force me to do the same or try to teach your beliefs in public schools you've crossed the line.
Of course America started out with Christian laws, laws based on the Bible. Gradually paganization has replaced them. You don't want Christian laws imposed on you, but I guess it's okay with you if your laws are imposed on Christians, and your beliefs taught in public schools no matter who objects to them. Right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Coyote, posted 08-20-2015 11:01 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Taq, posted 08-21-2015 11:20 AM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 38 of 424 (766759)
08-21-2015 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Greatest I am
08-20-2015 6:59 PM


I was asking what your limit to live and let live was, --- as it pertains to religions
I told you what those limits were. The limit to religious rights are where they interfere with someone else's rights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 08-20-2015 6:59 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 39 of 424 (766760)
08-21-2015 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
08-21-2015 12:34 AM


Of course America started out with Christian laws, laws based on the Bible. Gradually paganization has replaced them. You don't want Christian laws imposed on you, but I guess it's okay with you if your laws are imposed on Christians, and your beliefs taught in public schools no matter who objects to them. Right?
We don't want anyone's religious beliefs taught to the exclusion of other people's beliefs in public schools. That's the whole point.
Also, if you are for Christian law, then you would outlaw religious freedom. Afterall, it is a sin to worship deities other than the God of the Bible. You would put Hindus in jail for simply worshiping Vishnu. That doesn't make sense.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 08-21-2015 12:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 08-21-2015 12:02 PM Taq has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 40 of 424 (766763)
08-21-2015 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Greatest I am
08-20-2015 9:34 PM


Greatest I am writes:
Love, to be true love is close to what St. James said of faith. Without works and deed, it is dead.
Agreed.
Greatest I am writes:
Love to be true love also needs reciprocity. One cannot love alone.
Nonsense. You're just making up the definition to fit your point.
Greatest I am writes:
Can you love your enemy?
Of course you can. There are all kinds of examples of people in wartime helping their enemies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Greatest I am, posted 08-20-2015 9:34 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Greatest I am, posted 08-25-2015 7:43 AM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 41 of 424 (766764)
08-21-2015 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Taq
08-21-2015 11:20 AM


By specifically excluding "religion" you fail to recognize that religion is just one of the worldviews that law can be based on, and that you yourself advocate a worldview that others disagree with, though it doesn't bother you at all to impose yours on the rest of us.
Though Vishnu could not be celebrated by a Christian society, you should also recognize that the recent Supreme Court ruling in favor of gay marriage, and their ruling back in 1973 in favor of abortion, seriously violate Christian teachings though they are forced on us, this latest ruling in a way that actually criminalizes us for opposing gay marriage. But as the conversation has gone here on this subject it is very clear that nobody is bothered at all about this tyrannical imposition. Though it would bother you immensely if the Ten Commandments were made the law of the land, as they used to be. So America has now reverted to paganism, paganism is imposed on Christians as well as everbody else, doesn't bother anyone here at all.
As for what Christian law mandates, there have been different versions of it in different societies, but freedom of religion is not excluded, only any practices that seek to overthrow the governing worldview. There is no problem with religions that practice a peaceable worship of Vishnu or Allah or any other "god."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Taq, posted 08-21-2015 11:20 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Taq, posted 08-21-2015 12:19 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 42 of 424 (766767)
08-21-2015 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
08-21-2015 12:02 PM


Though Vishnu could not be celebrated by a Christian society, you should also recognize that the recent Supreme Court ruling in favor of gay marriage, and their ruling back in 1973 in favor of abortion, seriously violate Christian teachings though they are forced on us, this latest ruling in a way that actually criminalizes us for opposing gay marriage. But as the conversation has gone here on this subject it is very clear that nobody is bothered at all about this tyrannical imposition. Though it would bother you immensely if the Ten Commandments were made the law of the land, as they used to be. So America has now reverted to paganism, paganism is imposed on Christians as well as everbody else, doesn't bother anyone here at all.
Is it a sin to worship gods other than the God of the Bible? Yes or no?
If our laws allow people to commit this sin, does that law run counter to Christianity? Yes or no?
If our laws allow for the sin of worshiping Vishnu, then how is that any different than allowing other sins?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 08-21-2015 12:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-21-2015 12:26 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 424 (766768)
08-21-2015 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Taq
08-21-2015 12:19 PM


Good grief, Christianity doesn't expect people not to be sinners, on the contrary. Even believers are sinners, even the saved are sinners. Certainly we expect an entire society of unbelievers to be sinners, nobody is going to forbid people from being sinners.
Elevating a pagan god over the God of the Bible isn't going to happen in a Christian society, but that's different from allowing people of different religions to worship as they please in their own private spheres.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Taq, posted 08-21-2015 12:19 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Taq, posted 08-21-2015 1:36 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 44 of 424 (766772)
08-21-2015 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
08-21-2015 12:26 PM


Elevating a pagan god over the God of the Bible isn't going to happen in a Christian society, but that's different from allowing people of different religions to worship as they please in their own private spheres.
You have already stated that what goes on in private spheres is something that is "forced on you".
"Though Vishnu could not be celebrated by a Christian society, you should also recognize that the recent Supreme Court ruling in favor of gay marriage, and their ruling back in 1973 in favor of abortion, seriously violate Christian teachings though they are forced on us, this latest ruling in a way that actually criminalizes us for opposing gay marriage."--Faith, post 41
What does it matter to you what happens in someone else's wedding service? What business is it to you what happens in the privacy of a doctors office? Apparently, what happens in private spheres does matter for Christian laws.
So the question to you is why you would allow such serious sins as worshipping the wrong god and idol worship, but not other serious sins that also happen in private?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-21-2015 12:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 08-21-2015 8:13 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 424 (766791)
08-21-2015 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Taq
08-21-2015 1:36 PM


Refusing to recognize gay marriage is now a crime.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Taq, posted 08-21-2015 1:36 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-21-2015 8:31 PM Faith has replied
 Message 88 by Taq, posted 08-25-2015 8:26 PM Faith has replied

  
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