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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Faith
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Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1921 of 2887 (831347)
04-15-2018 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1912 by edge
04-15-2018 9:47 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
What does the upper horizontal line represent?

Sea level (at the time). The Ancestral Rockies are rising to the right of the diagram.

And at this time (now), what does it represent?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1912 by edge, posted 04-15-2018 9:47 AM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1922 by edge, posted 04-15-2018 11:50 PM Faith has responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 4393
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1922 of 2887 (831348)
04-15-2018 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1921 by Faith
04-15-2018 10:25 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
And at this time (now), what does it represent?

Okay, just remember that you asked.

That line is a chronostratigraphic horizon at the top of the Desmoinesian Stage (North American) of the Pennsylvanian sub-System on the eastern side of the Colorado Plateau.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1921 by Faith, posted 04-15-2018 10:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1924 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 12:00 AM edge has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1923 of 2887 (831349)
04-15-2018 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1895 by edge
04-14-2018 10:27 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The thing is, there isn't anything in that diagram to suggest when it occurred, and since I've seen so much evidence that serious disturbances did not happen until the entire geological column was laid down from Cambrian to Holocene, I have no doubt that what is shown in that diagram also happened after it was all in place.

There are plenty of other similar situations where there is a salt filled basin or sunken area where it is clear from the way the strata are parallel to each other that they were already there before the basin formed, so on a diagram like the one you've shown, where there aren't any clear clues to timing, that's the most likely interpretation there too.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1895 by edge, posted 04-14-2018 10:27 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1925 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 12:55 AM Faith has responded
 Message 1975 by edge, posted 04-16-2018 10:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1924 of 2887 (831350)
04-16-2018 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1922 by edge
04-15-2018 11:50 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I don't suppose you could translate that into simple English?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1922 by edge, posted 04-15-2018 11:50 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1976 by edge, posted 04-16-2018 11:15 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1925 of 2887 (831351)
04-16-2018 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1923 by Faith
04-15-2018 11:59 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

...I've seen so much evidence that serious disturbances did not happen until the entire geological column was laid down from Cambrian to Holocene, I have no doubt that what is shown in that diagram also happened after it was all in place.

You have ? Why havent you posted about it ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1923 by Faith, posted 04-15-2018 11:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1926 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 1:05 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 1928 by NoNukes, posted 04-16-2018 10:30 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1926 of 2887 (831352)
04-16-2018 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1925 by PaulK
04-16-2018 12:55 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I have.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1925 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 12:55 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1927 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 1:10 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1927 of 2887 (831353)
04-16-2018 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1926 by Faith
04-16-2018 1:05 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Then why have you kept quiet about it ? What is this evidence?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1926 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 1:05 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1929 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 1:01 PM PaulK has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 1928 of 2887 (831356)
04-16-2018 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1925 by PaulK
04-16-2018 12:55 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
You have ? Why havent you posted about it ?

Yes, and why is Faith, the only person in the world who can provide evidence of what happened in the past? Why is such a thing possible for Faith and impossible for science despite the fact that we are talking about the scientific definition of evidence?

Well, we know why Faith has indeed posted silly conclusive statements that she bases on some simplistic look at some facts, and of course, her conclusions have not gone without challenge. Faith claims victory despite having proven nothing, and then later claims to have posted evidence in the past. Rinse, lather, repeat; as often as needed on any topic.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1925 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 12:55 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1929 of 2887 (831360)
04-16-2018 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1927 by PaulK
04-16-2018 1:10 AM


Column all together before disturbance: salt basin evidence
There have been many different angles of evidence that the completed geologic column was laid down before being disturbed as a stack, rather than individual layers being disturbed. One of the lines of evidence I've given in the past is cross sections of areas where there are salt basins, in which you can see a whole block of strata, sometimes identified as the usual timescale time periods, all sagging as a unit beneath the salt basin, or sometimes with salt domes shown rising up through the layers from beneath the whole stack, some already at the top though supposedly they must have had millions of years to rise. They rise at a rate that should take a lot less time than millions of years but whatever.

I've found a few such discussions on Search but Search is being difficult these days. You get a list of posts on a subject and when you check one out and try to go back to the list you get some kind of error message and have to start the search all over. I remember posting diagrams on this subject many times in the past but I can't find the ones I remember. Michigan basin is one area, Gulf coast area is another. Completed layers all sunken like hammocks in those cases. They prove what I say they prove but getting that across is impossible because of the ingrained conventional paradigm that just can't see the true implications of the evidence because of its pre-emption within the inadequate paradigm.

And now I see we're getting the ad hominem type of response. I talk about evidence, you come back at me personally. Oh well. [NO, I DON'T MEAN YOU PERSONALLY IN THIS CASE. ALTHOUGH IT IS CERTAINLY OFTEN TRUE OF YOU. I OFTEN REFER TO ALL MY OPPONENTS AS AN UNDIFFERENTIATED GROUP, SORRY.]

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1927 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 1:10 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1930 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 1:19 PM Faith has responded
 Message 2072 by Percy, posted 04-21-2018 11:25 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1930 of 2887 (831363)
04-16-2018 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1929 by Faith
04-16-2018 1:01 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

There have been many different angles of evidence that the completed geologic column was laid down before being disturbed as a stack, rather than individual layers being disturbed

I cant remember one.

quote:

One of the lines of evidence I've given in the past is cross sections of areas where there are salt basins, in which you can see a whole block of strata, sometimes identified as the usual timescale time periods, all sagging as a unit beneath the salt basin, or sometimes with salt domes shown rising up through the layers.

If I remember correctly there was contrary evidence in that example, too.

However, a few cherry picked examples are not worthwhile as evidence, and nowhere near good enough to justify disregarding contrary evidence. You could equally well argue that all swans are black that way. On the other hand we have very good evidence of earlier disturbances

As an aside although you said you found discussions you havent linked to a single one.

quote:

Michigan basin is one area, Gulf coast area is another. Completed layers all sunken like hammocks in those cases

Even if true thats obviously not enough even if we didnt have good counter-examples. Some, therefore all is obviously invalid reasoning.

[quote]

quote:

And now I see we're getting the ad hominem type of response. I direct you to the evidence, you come back at me personally. Oh well.

Even if we generously accept your vague references as direction there is no reason to believe that the evidence is remotely adequate, or even could be. And there certainly was no ad hominem in the post you replied to or its predecessor. Which is more than can be said for your post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1929 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 1:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1931 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 1:30 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1931 of 2887 (831364)
04-16-2018 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1930 by PaulK
04-16-2018 1:19 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Yes, that's the kind of dismissive irrelevant "other evidence" I usually get. If there are only two separate areas where it can be shown that the strata were all in place before any disturbance occurred, whether tectonic, erosive, volcanic or salt-caused deformation as a unit, that is consistent with the Flood model which would of course expect all the strata everywhere to be laid down one after another in rapid succession, and if salt domes rise up through the whole stack and have already reached the top, and we know that if enough has accumulated they can rise almost at a visible rate of movement, that it would have taken nowhere near millions of years. More like, oh, say, something like four thousand or less? Yes, this is all explained differently via the other paradigm, the other system of interpretation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1930 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 1:19 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1932 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 1:43 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1932 of 2887 (831365)
04-16-2018 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1931 by Faith
04-16-2018 1:30 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

Yes, that's the kind of dismissive irrelevant "other evidence" I usually get

Instead of getting arrogant and nasty when you are caught making false claims it would be better not to make the false claims in the first place.

quote:

If there are only two separate areas where it can be shown that the strata were all in place before any disturbance occurred, whether tectonic, erosive, volcanic or salt-caused deformation as a unit, that is consistent with the Flood model which would of course expect all the strata everywhere to be laid down one after another in rapid succession,

Then all the regions where there is contrary evidence would certainly outweigh them. Because there is a lot of geological evidence against your Flood geology.

quote:

...salt domes rise up through the whole stack and have already reached the top, and we know that they rise almost at a visible rate of movement, that it would have taken nowhere near millions of years. More like, oh, say, something like four thousand or less?

Guesses arent evidence, and even if you could find a young salt dome it wouldnt be evidence that the Earth is young. That really should be obvious.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1931 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 1:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1933 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 1:45 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 1934 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 1:55 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1933 of 2887 (831366)
04-16-2018 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1932 by PaulK
04-16-2018 1:43 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Produce one of those aupposedly many areas of contrary evidence please. This is just the usual case of competing explanatory paradigms and not of different facts so that's what I would aim to show with whatever different evidence you think you have.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1932 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 1:43 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1935 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 1:59 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1934 of 2887 (831367)
04-16-2018 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1932 by PaulK
04-16-2018 1:43 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
,,,even if you could find a young salt dome it wouldnt be evidence that the Earth is young. That really should be obvious.

Since the prevailing paradigm says the geo column layers start hundreds of millions of years ago, if a salt dome can be shown to have risen from beneath the earliest rock layer, the Cambrian, to the top of the stack or Holocene, or even where there are layers missing it could be shown to have risen through a few million years' worth of layers/time periods, that would be a strong indication that the timescale explanation is out of whack, since the domes once formed rise fast enough to cause earthquakes and create other problems.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1932 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 1:43 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1935 of 2887 (831368)
04-16-2018 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1933 by Faith
04-16-2018 1:45 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

Produce one of those aupposedly many areas of contrary evidence please.

The Grand Canyon Area has a number of features, of course, Siccar Point - anywhere there is an angular unconformity. Anywhere we find desert deposits, like the Gobi. Anywhere we find substantial evaporites deposits like the example Edge posted recently in this thread, anywhere we find buried landscapes - a stunning example at Naturalis Historia

quote:

This is just the usual case of competing explanatory paradigms and not of different facts so that's what I would aim to show with whatever different evidence you think you have.

Funny how that never applies to your evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1933 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 1:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1936 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 2:11 PM PaulK has responded

    
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