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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1936 of 2887 (831370)
04-16-2018 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1935 by PaulK
04-16-2018 1:59 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
As you know, I've argued for a different explanation of angular unconformities, and you'd need to explain the rest of your list for me to get your point. I have no idea what you mean to be suggesting with the last example. And I've said a million times that I see this as a matter of both sides having the same facts or evidence but different ways of explaining it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1935 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 1:59 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1937 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 2:24 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1937 of 2887 (831374)
04-16-2018 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1936 by Faith
04-16-2018 2:11 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

As you know, I've argued for a different explanation of angular unconformities, and you'd need to explain the rest of your list for me to get your point.

I know you have an ad hoc explanation of angular unconformities. I also know that it is riddled with problems and you havent any evidence for it over the far more sensible standard view. Even the basic form - the sudden transition from steeply tilted to pretty much flat strata obviously fits mainstream geology far better before we start to think about anything else.

Deserts and evaporites should be obvious. You dont get many years of dry conditions during a year long-flood.

You dont have time for landscapes to form, either. Thats why you insist that they dont exist.

And if you have a sensible explanation of how you could get a buried forest with in-situ remains - covered by volcanic ash and sandwiched between layers of coal I would like to hear it. Dont forget to explain why the remains - plant and animal - are typical of the Permian system (consistent with the order in the fossil record).

quote:

And I've said a million times that I see this as a matter of both sides having the same facts or evidence but different ways of explaining it.

But you only say that to answer our evidence (or try to) - you never consider it when presenting your own. If we disagree with your idea of the implications you call us blind - even we are obviously correct.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1936 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 2:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1938 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 2:36 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 1939 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 2:40 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1938 of 2887 (831375)
04-16-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1937 by PaulK
04-16-2018 2:24 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Creationists only very recently have been trying to accumulate evidence and explanations to counter the current paradigm which has at least a couple hundred years head start on us. After you've elaborated your paradigm for that many years of course it looks like all the evidence is on your side because you've got explanations for every little thing, but even the small amount YECs have put together in such a short time STRONGLY indicates that the whole conventional paradigm is a house of cards. But for people immersed in that paradigm the interlocking habits of explanation are hard to break, not to mention that motivationally nobody wants to break them, for the reasons mentioned even on this thread: it would supposedly mean the collapse of all "science."

Your buried forest could very well be explained by the Spirit Lake example of trees that have sunk into a lake in an upright position after the forest was destroyed by a volcano, so that they appear to hve been growing there but actually weren't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1937 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 2:24 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1942 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 2:54 PM Faith has responded
 Message 2076 by Percy, posted 04-21-2018 12:31 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 2077 by ringo, posted 04-21-2018 12:44 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 2081 by dwise1, posted 04-21-2018 4:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1939 of 2887 (831376)
04-16-2018 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1937 by PaulK
04-16-2018 2:24 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
You dont have time for landscapes to form, either. Thats why you insist that they dont exist.

I wish you'd all stop making up motivations for me instead of dealing with what I've actually said.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1937 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 2:24 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1943 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 2:57 PM Faith has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17744
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 1940 of 2887 (831377)
04-16-2018 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1790 by Faith
04-13-2018 7:38 AM


Re: De toit
Faith writes:

Pollux writes:

Have you ever read Wonderly's "Neglect of Geologic Data by Creationists"? It is freely available on the Net and will give you a lot to think about.

I'm probably not going to be able to read any of your recommendations.

I don't blame you. Wonderly's work is long and full of information somewhat more detailed than you're accustomed to. In case you change your mind here's a link to the PDF: NEGLECT OF GEOLOGIC DATA: Sedimentary Strata Compared with Young-Earth Creationist Writings.

But I keep thinking that while it's very clear there are geographic and stratigraphic similarities that fit the continents together, the extent of ice sheets could have occurred to the continents separately after they were some distance apart. Probably not far apart, though, because the ice age would have followed the split pretty soon afterward. You'd have to show me the evidence that they fit together just as tellingly as the other elements. I can always rethink the timing to some extent, but I do like the way I've sorted it out at the moment.

Since the way you've "sorted it out" doesn't rely upon evidence, you are of course free to "rethink the timing to some extent" (and everything else, for that matter) as often as you like.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1790 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 7:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1941 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 2:51 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1941 of 2887 (831378)
04-16-2018 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1940 by Percy
04-16-2018 2:43 PM


Re: De toit
My conclusions DO rely on evidence. I just don't happen to have the particular evidence of the ice sheet penetration. And at my age I'm not going to become a geologist or even be able to read much of the literature. I think I do very well to keep up as well as I do.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1940 by Percy, posted 04-16-2018 2:43 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2073 by Percy, posted 04-21-2018 11:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 1942 of 2887 (831379)
04-16-2018 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1938 by Faith
04-16-2018 2:36 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

Creationists only very recently have been trying to accumulate evidence and explanations to counter the current paradigm which has at least a couple hundred years head start on us.

Since creationism was the dominant view when we started accumulating evidence that is slanting the picture more than somewhat. Creationists had a chance right at the beginning, and a strong position. And the time since then to the start of the modern Creationist movement - in the early 20th Century - is well under your 200 years.

quote:

After you've elaborated your paradigm for that many years of course it looks like all the evidence is on your side because you've got explanations for every little thing, but even the small amount YECs have put together in such a short time STRONGLY indicates that the whole conventional paradigm is a house of cards. B

Its not just little things, its pretty much everything. The order of the fossil record is not little or new and there is no still sign of Young Earth creationists explaining it. There are no great achievementd, there are no arguments half as good as those against a Young Earth.

In reality you pretend to have evidence, pretend to have present proofs, dismiss and ignore large amounts of evidence. Because on a fair assessment you really have very little beyond an insistence that your favourite myths must be literally true.

quote:

Your buried forest could very well be explained by the Spirit Lake example of trees that have sunk into a lake in an upright position after the forest was destroyed by a volcano, so that they appear to hve been growing there but actually weren't.

Even if that were true - and it would take evidence to show that - it doesnt explain why they fit with the order of the fossil record, and I doubt that Spirit Lake would have the same animal remains. Also, the trees in Spirit Lake had been growing nearby which hardly helps you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1938 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 2:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1944 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 3:02 PM PaulK has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1943 of 2887 (831380)
04-16-2018 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1939 by Faith
04-16-2018 2:40 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

I wish you'd all stop making up motivations for me instead of dealing with what I've actually said

Well you certainly dont deny the presence of buried landscapes based on the evidence. As usual you never bothered to investigate it and refuse to accept evidence when it is presented.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1939 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 2:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1945 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 3:06 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1944 of 2887 (831382)
04-16-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1942 by PaulK
04-16-2018 2:54 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Old style "creationism" was as much a crock as the current paradigm, though even less rationalizable. And it also contradicted the Bible which made it wrong for starters. Darwin had to answer some pretty ridiculous unbiblical AND unscientific explanations for various phenomena, and geology ran into similar irrationalities. So no, there never was a true creationism in either context.

I wish I had the time and the energy to put together all the evidence I've already assembled in one place.

The "fossil order" can't be explained because it's a big fat illusion that there IS any real order to the fossils.

There is a supposed "petrified forest" in the Yellowstone area that looks just like the layers of "forests" in Spirit Lake. I don't know anything about your example except that it sounds like a similar situation as it is described.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1942 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 2:54 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1946 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 3:16 PM Faith has responded
 Message 2078 by Percy, posted 04-21-2018 1:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1945 of 2887 (831383)
04-16-2018 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1943 by PaulK
04-16-2018 2:57 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
For the umpteen jillionth time, once I've assembled as much evidence as I have against the prevailing paradigm and for the young earth, all I have to do is interpret new examples in accord with what I already know, I don't need to start all over reinventing the wheel.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1943 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 2:57 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1947 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 3:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1946 of 2887 (831384)
04-16-2018 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1944 by Faith
04-16-2018 3:02 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

Old style "creationism" was as much a crock as the current paradigm, though even less rationalizable. And it also contradicted the Bible which made it wrong for starters. Darwin had to answer some pretty ridiculous unbiblical AND unscientific explanations for various phenomena, and geology ran into similar irrationalities. So no, there never was a true creationism in either context.

You say that, but there was nothing against a Young Earth or a worldwide Flood. And Biblical arguments would even have been accepted by some. And dont forget that the creationists of that time were trying to deal with the evidence, too.

quote:

I wish I had the time and the energy to put together all the evidence I've already assembled in one place

It would save a lot of time if you restricted yourself to things that are actually true, instead of things you made up. Which really shows how weak your case is.

And dont forget that this sub-discussion started because you claimed to have evidence you didnt have.

quote:

The "fossil order" can't be explained because it's a big fat illusion that there IS any real order to the fossils.

And there you go making baseless claims to dismiss evidence you dont like. And dont forget it wasnt so long ago you were claiming you never said that and complaining bitterly when it was pointed out that you had.

But the order of the fossil record is observed fact, and I have pointed to a dramatic example of it. On top of all the others that have been given.

So much for interpreting the evidence differently. Outright denying observed facts is not an interpretation.

quote:

There is a supposed "petrified forest" in the Yellowstone area that looks just like the layers of "forests" in Spirit Lake. I don't know anything about your example except that it sounds like a similar situation as it is described.

Or so creationists say. I dont know so much about those but you can bet that they fit with the order of the fossil record, too.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1944 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 3:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1948 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 3:33 PM PaulK has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1947 of 2887 (831385)
04-16-2018 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1945 by Faith
04-16-2018 3:06 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

For the umpteen jillionth time, once I've assembled as much evidence as I have against the prevailing paradigm and for the young earth, all I have to do is interpret new examples in accord with what I already know, I don't need to start all over reinventing the wheel.

Since you have - to be kind - very little evidence, and we have more and better then presumably we should be able to do the same without being accused of blindness. The more so since we arent dismissing actual evidence out of hand or calling it an illusion for no good reason.

But maybe you think pretending to have evidence beats really having it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1945 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 3:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1948 of 2887 (831386)
04-16-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1946 by PaulK
04-16-2018 3:16 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
But the order of the fossil record is observed fact

You mean that motley collection of fossils found in separate layers that are misinterpreted as some kind of order from primitive to modern but aren't.

I'm sorry I have too many different things on my mind to be expected to remember anything you call "a dramatic example of it" so if you have any interest in real communication, which I'm afraid it's pretty clear you don't, but if you'd at least like to appear as if you do, you'll have to repeat yourself.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1946 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 3:16 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1949 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 3:36 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1949 of 2887 (831387)
04-16-2018 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1948 by Faith
04-16-2018 3:33 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
quote:

You mean that motley collection of fossils found in separate layers that are misinterpreted as some kind of order from primitive to modern but aren't

I mean the fact that there is a distinct order to the fossil record regardless of its interpretation. An order that is not reasonably explained by habitat or hydraulic sorting or differential escape, even in combination.

And since you have added more of your usual nastiness, I mean the fossil forest in the Naturalis Historia link. A very good collection of fossils, all nicely preserved - and all consistent with the known order.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1948 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 3:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1950 by Faith, posted 04-16-2018 3:40 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 29837
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1950 of 2887 (831388)
04-16-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1949 by PaulK
04-16-2018 3:36 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The "actual order" has no real order to it at all. just the imposed daydreams of evolutionists.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1949 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 3:36 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1951 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2018 3:49 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1954 by Tangle, posted 04-16-2018 4:20 PM Faith has responded

    
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