Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8805 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-13-2017 7:20 PM
331 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), Percy (Admin) (2 members, 329 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,103 Year: 28,709/21,208 Month: 775/1,847 Week: 150/475 Day: 43/17 Hour: 1/2

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
3334
35
36373839Next
Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 511 of 580 (824451)
11-29-2017 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 509 by Dr Adequate
11-29-2017 12:20 AM


DrAdequate writes:


Also, how often do you envisage this process of destruction and creation taking place? If you look at the fossil record, there's pretty much always something new popping up or going extinct. Geologists distinguish between 99 official geological ages, and these are themselves capable of subdivision.

My theory involves an initial creation, which was corrupted (possibly by the fall of the angels - Satan and the other demons) and eventually destroyed by a global flood. This brings us to the point described in Genesis 1:2 - "And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep". Then came the "six days" of the new creation, which was also corrupted and eventully destroyed by another global flood. This lead to a retoration of sorts, started by Noah and the other creatures in the ark - and which is the world we live in now. This creation will in turn by replaced by "a new heaven and a new earth" mentioned in Rev 21.

Since the earth has existed in corrupted states, there exist the possibilities of multiple catastrophes that are interpreted as the various "geological ages" by scientists. (Origen - an early Church father - suggested the possibility of many more creations than the few I have envisaged.)

As you can see, this is a u-beaut theory that you and the other posters will find hard to resist and that will probably lead to multiple conversions of same to the Christian faith.

If we accept that God may be dicking with us by producing false appearances, then ever truth, no matter how apparent, acquires an air of mystery. You can appeal to God's mysterious ways to suppose that instead of seeing evidence for evolution, we are seeing hundreds of vast and pointless miracles producing the appearance of evolution. But why stop there? We could equally look at a cow and wonder if it's a cow, or if God is exercising his miraculous powers to make the mere appearance of a cow, for reasons beyond our mortal ken.

Goodness gracious, this is too deep for my shallow mind. Please don't mention such too-magnificent thoughts again.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-29-2017 12:20 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by Pressie, posted 11-29-2017 8:10 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 513 by RAZD, posted 11-29-2017 9:48 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 518 by dwise1, posted 11-30-2017 2:42 AM Dredge has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1856
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 512 of 580 (824457)
11-29-2017 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 511 by Dredge
11-29-2017 3:34 AM


Dredge writes:

My theory involves...

Luckily for humanity nobody cares what your personal "theory" involves. Just don't try to teach your personal "theory" as science. It isn't.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Dredge, posted 11-29-2017 3:34 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 513 of 580 (824463)
11-29-2017 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 511 by Dredge
11-29-2017 3:34 AM


Not a Scientific Theory without a falsification test
My theory involves ...
As you can see, this is a u-beaut theory ...

What is your falsification test?

Without a falsification test it cannot be a scientific theory.

Since the earth has existed in corrupted states, there exist the possibilities of multiple catastrophes that are interpreted as the various "geological ages" by scientists. (Origen - an early Church father - suggested the possibility of many more creations than the few I have envisaged.)

Even calling it a hypothesis would appear to be a stretch.

This looks more like the concept of a stumbling, bumbling, patch-work god/s of the god-did-it variety.

Run into a problems then whip out another god-did-it add-on.

Goodness gracious, this is too deep for my shallow mind. Please don't mention such too-magnificent thoughts again.

In other words, keep it dumb.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Dredge, posted 11-29-2017 3:34 AM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by jar, posted 11-29-2017 10:00 AM RAZD has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 514 of 580 (824467)
11-29-2017 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by RAZD
11-29-2017 9:48 AM


Re: Not a Scientific Theory without a falsification test
Words of one syllable or less?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by RAZD, posted 11-29-2017 9:48 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 515 by RAZD, posted 11-29-2017 5:05 PM jar has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 515 of 580 (824503)
11-29-2017 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by jar
11-29-2017 10:00 AM


Re: Not a Scientific Theory without a falsification test
Words of one syllable or less?

It seems Trump is the rube standard.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by jar, posted 11-29-2017 10:00 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 516 of 580 (824524)
11-30-2017 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by Dredge
11-29-2017 3:08 AM


Re: what a pathetic God Dredge markets
The Unitarians are cultural Marxists masquerading as Christians, in other words.

Because you think that real Christians would be against civil rights and in favor of war? You're a hoot, Dredge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by Dredge, posted 11-29-2017 3:08 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Dredge, posted 11-30-2017 3:40 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3028
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 517 of 580 (824526)
11-30-2017 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by Dredge
11-29-2017 3:08 AM


Re: what a pathetic God Dredge markets
The Unitarians are cultural Marxists masquerading as Christians, in other words.

So many Unitarian-Universalists tend to be Jewish, that the old joke is that when someone hears that someone was buried in the Unitarian cemetery, the response is, "Funny, he didn't look Jewish." Another joke is that Unitarians are atheists and agnostics (and both) who have children. The joke that we actually do worship the coffee pot applies to other groups as well.

Those jokes do have bases in fact. So why would any Unitarian ever want to masquerade as a Christian (eeww!)? Atheists and many agnostics reject Christianity and Christians for good cause, so why would they ever want to masquerade as one? Christians have so much Jewish blood on their hands from literally millennia of persecution and pogroms and just plain murder, that I can only marvel at any Jew's ability to be in the same room as a Christian.

And you think that they would want to masquerade as Christians? What an ignorant fool you are!

Of course you are ignorant of this simple fact as well: ignorance can be cured very easily, by learning something. Everybody is ignorant about something and everybody can be cured by learning about what they are ignorant of. Stupidity is a different matter altogether, since it is stubbornly and willfully clinging to one's ignorance.

But it can't last forever - all infantile utopian fantasies eventually crumble under the weight of reality.

How hilarious! Creationists and most "true Christians" are not only completely divorced from reality, but they actually fear reality as does their puny god, the "God of the Gaps". You have created a false theology in which you believe things that are contrary to fact, but then you take it to an entirely different level altogether with the belief that your god can only exist if those contrary-to-fact beliefs are true. IOW, if the world truly is as it actually is, then God does not exist. You idiots achieve what even the most anti-God atheist never possibly could: you have succeeded in disproving God. Of course that only works if one accepts your blatantly false premises. And the only one who accept those blatantly false premises are you yourself.

Think about it (admittedly a huge stretch in your case). Young "true Christians" raise their entire lives in The Faith are abandoning it in droves, running away from it as fast as they can. 65% to 80% of them are leaving Christianity, many of them abandoning any kind of religion altogether. They are the fast-growing segment of the population called "nones", as in "none of the above". Many become atheists, but more just want to have nothing whatsoever to do with that fracking stupid religion.

Ever hear of the Shakers? Mostly known now for their simple and elegant furniture and other household implements, they were a religious sect that practiced celibacy. Since they could not produce any offspring, they could not produce any new generations of Shakers. The only way to recruit new Shakers was through proselytizing and conversion. And by adopting children from orphanages. Needless to say, they are dying out. At this point, I'm not even sure whether there are any left of them.

That is the situation of "true Christians" now. Their own children, the next generation, are fleeing that aberrant theology like the plague. Their only hope is to deceive and convert new converts. With whatever lies and deceptions they can muster, since that is their way, after all.

"True Christianity" crumbling under the weight of reality. Good riddance!


As for the Unitarians and Universalists (who finally joined together in 1961), we have been at the forefront of nearly every social advance. Public education. The Red Cross. Birth control.

The history of Universalism is interesting. The Christian theology up to that time emphasized God's wrath and fire and brimstone, etc. Universalism was the Gospel of Universal Salvation which instead emphasized God's Love. Out of that comes a standard joke that Universalists believe that God is too good to damn us while Unitarians believe that they are too good to be damned. The big problem for Universalism is that their message was too successful. Mainstream religions started adopting the idea and suddenly there was nothing to differentiate them from any other church. After that is when they found common ground with the Unitarians.


We know you "true Christians" for the blatant hypocrites that you are. Christian doctrine would immediately identify Trump and Pence as the Beast and the Anti-Christ, yet all the "true Christians" lust so much after secular political power that they are all lining up to kiss both their asses. I'm sure many of them are adding some extra tonguing in order to gain extra favor, especially the more extremely homophobic of them.

You "true Christians" have already demonstrated to the world how utterly and pathetically evil you are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by Dredge, posted 11-29-2017 3:08 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by Dredge, posted 11-30-2017 4:05 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3028
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 518 of 580 (824527)
11-30-2017 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 511 by Dredge
11-29-2017 3:34 AM


My theory involves an initial creation, which was corrupted ...

What theory? You present us with no theory, just some confused dogmatic mumblings.

Where's you evidence? Where are your hypotheses with which you had built that theory? Where are your tests of those hypotheses?

Do you even have any inkling of a clue of what a theory actually is? Of course not! As you persist in demonstrating, you are a complete and utter fool!

Yes, I do know and understand about "fools for Christ". That you will be called fools for believing what you do. During the Jesus Freak Movement of 1970 there was even a proselytizing troupe of clowns called "Fools for Christ." That is not what this is about. They were talking about outsiders who ridicule Christian teachings.

What you are doing is to ridicule Christ and Christian doctrine yourself. You are claiming that Christians must believe absolutely ridiculous and false things. You are demonstrating that Christianity is completely and utterly false.

As you can see, this is a u-beaut theory that you and the other posters will find hard to resist and that will probably lead to multiple conversions of same to the Christian faith.

No, it is complete and utterly false nonsense that will result in even more people foresaking such a pathetically false religion.

Thank you very much for your zealous contributions to the continuing growth and spread of atheism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Dredge, posted 11-29-2017 3:34 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by Dredge, posted 11-30-2017 4:17 AM dwise1 has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 519 of 580 (824528)
11-30-2017 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 516 by Dr Adequate
11-30-2017 12:42 AM


Re: what a pathetic God Dredge markets
Wow, how childishly naive. The civil rights movement was invented by Communists and the 1960's anti-war movement was also a Communist construct - Western Communists trying to defend their comrades in the East and funded largley by the USSR. Martin Luther King was a Christian frontman for Communists. It ain't rocket science.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2017 12:42 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by RAZD, posted 11-30-2017 7:16 AM Dredge has responded
 Message 525 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2017 9:32 AM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 520 of 580 (824529)
11-30-2017 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 517 by dwise1
11-30-2017 2:15 AM


Re: what a pathetic God Dredge markets
dwise1 writes:

And you think that they would want to masquerade as Christians? What an ignorant fool you are!


It's possible I know next to nothing about Unit-arians, in which case, I shall read up on them. But they sound like interesting cranks.

So many Unitarian-Universalists tend to be Jewish

Considering the Unitarian proclivities for Loony Left politics and utopian fantasy, this makes sense.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by dwise1, posted 11-30-2017 2:15 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by Percy, posted 11-30-2017 9:19 AM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 521 of 580 (824530)
11-30-2017 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 518 by dwise1
11-30-2017 2:42 AM


dwise1 writes:

What theory? You present us with no theory, just some confused dogmatic mumblings.


You're partly correct - not a theory, but excellent theology which can also accommodate the geological evidence of the history of the earth.

Where's you evidence? Where are your hypotheses with which you had built that theory? Where are your tests of those hypotheses?

Do you even have any inkling of a clue of what a theory actually is? Of course not! As you persist in demonstrating, you are a complete and utter fool!

Stop this. Your questions and accusations are like rocks hurled at my fragile, egg-shell mind.

What you are doing is to ridicule Christ and Christian doctrine yourself. You are claiming that Christians must believe absolutely ridiculous and false things. You are demonstrating that Christianity is completely and utterly false.

You need to enlighten me on these points. Please explains zem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by dwise1, posted 11-30-2017 2:42 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2017 9:30 AM Dredge has responded
 Message 527 by dwise1, posted 11-30-2017 10:25 AM Dredge has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 522 of 580 (824534)
11-30-2017 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 519 by Dredge
11-30-2017 3:40 AM


what a pathetic God/World/Univers Dredge markets
... The civil rights movement was invented by Communists ...

Wrong.

... and the 1960's anti-war movement was also a Communist construct ...

Wrong.

... Western Communists trying to defend their comrades in the East and funded largley by the USSR. ...

Wrong.

... Martin Luther King was a Christian frontman for Communists. ...

Wrong.

... It ain't rocket science.

Paranoid delusion never is.

You've been reading too much right wing paranoid propaganda.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Dredge, posted 11-30-2017 3:40 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 528 by Dredge, posted 12-01-2017 3:49 AM RAZD has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 523 of 580 (824540)
11-30-2017 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 520 by Dredge
11-30-2017 4:05 AM


Re: what a pathetic God Dredge markets
I'm a born and raised Unitarian, and nothing you're saying about the Unitarians is true. In fact, nothing you say about almost anything is true. You seem to be here to cast unsubstantiated allegations at all and sundry things you don't like.

Unitarianism is a very common compromise religion when Jews marry non-Jews, which was the case with my parents. My mother was Lutheran, my father Jewish. They met during WWII at a dance organized by a women's group in Washington D.C. My father was a lieutenant on a destroyer escort and my mother was a secretary at the Pentagon.

Unitarianism is almost dead today. As DWise1 mentioned, the Unitarians merged with the Universalists over a half century ago, and it's nearly killed Unitarianism. The union wasn't total, some purely Unitarian churches still exist today, but most have become Unitarian-Universalist churches. The Universalist side is dominant by far, and you can sit through an entire sermon without hearing the word God once or even anything remotely spiritual.

It was several decades ago listening to the Reverend Dorothy Kimball at the Unitarian Church in Hudson, MA, that was the last time I heard a purely Unitarian sermon. It was Easter and the sermon was wonderful. She's moved on and we've moved on, and where we live now there is a Unitarian-Universalist church where you can hear sermons about women's rights and saving the whales and saving the environment, but nary a word about God. We attend the local Congregational Church now.

Dorothy, I know you occasionally search for mentions of yourself on the Internet, so if you find this I again say hello and send fond wishes.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by Dredge, posted 11-30-2017 4:05 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by jar, posted 11-30-2017 9:35 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 541 by Dredge, posted 12-02-2017 4:31 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 524 of 580 (824542)
11-30-2017 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 521 by Dredge
11-30-2017 4:17 AM


You're partly correct - not a theory, but excellent theology which can also accommodate the geological evidence of the history of the earth.

But the notion of a God who deceives humanity just for the heck of it has never been good theology. As the Reverend Mr. Charles Kingsley wrote back in the nineteenth century: "I cannot believe that God has written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie for all mankind." Now here you come asking us to believe in God as the Great Deceiver. And with no Biblical warrant to do so, this is just something you've made up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by Dredge, posted 11-30-2017 4:17 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 529 by Dredge, posted 12-01-2017 3:54 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 525 of 580 (824543)
11-30-2017 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 519 by Dredge
11-30-2017 3:40 AM


Re: what a pathetic God Dredge markets
Wow, how childishly naive. The civil rights movement was invented by Communists and the 1960's anti-war movement was also a Communist construct - Western Communists trying to defend their comrades in the East and funded largley by the USSR. Martin Luther King was a Christian frontman for Communists. It ain't rocket science.

If Communists got black people civil rights, then that was an awesome thing that Communists did right there, and all decent people should be grateful to them for it.

And if no real Christians were against segregation, if all Christians supported racism and injustice, then that right there shows the moral bankruptcy of Christianity.

But are you quite sure, Dredge, that no-one but a Communist could be against racism? It seems to me that one could despise racism quite easily never having read a word of Karl Marx. (Especially if one was black.)

So despite what you have said, I will go on believing that some Christians are decent people, and that Communists do not have a monopoly on virtue.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Dredge, posted 11-30-2017 3:40 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 530 by Dredge, posted 12-01-2017 4:09 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
3334
35
36373839Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017