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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 541 of 580 (824718)
12-02-2017 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by Percy
11-30-2017 9:19 AM


Re: what a pathetic God Dredge markets
Percy writes:

My mother was Lutheran, my father Jewish.

Hey, I'm part-Jewish too!


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JonF
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Posts: 3998
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 542 of 580 (824719)
12-02-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Dredge
12-02-2017 4:26 PM


The ol' "we don't know everything therefore we know nothing" PRATT.

Polls would be a good analogy. What percentage of the electorate gets polled? Of course the analogy breaks down when you consider how the samples are selected, and there is known bias in the fossils we have. But there is useful and verifiable information in what we have. Especially when you see the obvious nested hierarchy they form.


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RAZD
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Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 543 of 580 (824720)
12-02-2017 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Dredge
12-02-2017 4:26 PM


Fossils are a falsification tests
Well, many fossils have been found but they cannot be submitted as evidence for evolution. ...

Can they be used as evidence that falsifies evolution?

That is the question. That is how science works. Evidence that doesn't falsify a theory becomes part of the pile of evidence used to formulate the theory.

We don't need evidence for evolution, we know it is happening all around us, we know that it has been tested by fossils and by DNA genomes, and we know that no evidence to date suggests that they cannot be explained by evolution.

... Here's why:
The fossils that have been discovered so far could represent only the tiniest fraction of the total number of fossils in existence. So our present fossil collection could be so small as to be "statistically insignificant". An election result can't be decided if only 0.01% of the votes have been counted, can it?

Irrelevant. The question important to science is whether or not there is evidence can falsify evolution.

Furthermore, since there is no way of knowing the total number of fossils in existence, there is no way of knowing when a "statistically significant" number of fossils have been collected. In which case, the fossil record can never be safely used as definitive empirical evidence for evolution.

Also irrelevant. The question important to science is whether or not there is still whether evidence can falsify evolution.

As you have seen, all fossils found fall into nested hierarchies, all fossils found can be explained by evolution, including all the intermediate forms.

We don't need evidence FOR evolution, so the question is still whether evidence can falsify evolution.

This is another teaching moment brought to you by Dredge on how science works.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
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Posts: 16305
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 544 of 580 (824723)
12-02-2017 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Dredge
12-02-2017 4:26 PM


Dredge writes:

An election result can't be decided if only 0.01% of the votes have been counted, can it?

When sampling is random then percentage doesn't matter, only the sample size. For example, a sample size of around 1700 or 1800 is enough to provide a confidence factor of around 95% when checking electronic circuit test coverage, whether the circuit is a million elements or a billion.

[AbE]
The example I should have used is for elections. The same reason is why most election surveys query between 1500 and 2000 people, regardless whether the electorate size is a few million people or a few hundred million.
[/AbE]

When sampling isn't random then the answer is much more complicated, and there *are* non-random factors in our sampling of some types of fossils. For example, we have very few fossils from upland regions because they don't experience net deposition but net erosion, so fossils from those regions are very unlikely to be preserved.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : AbE.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 545 of 580 (824732)
12-02-2017 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Dredge
12-02-2017 4:26 PM


Well, many fossils have been found but they cannot be submitted as evidence for evolution. Here's why:

The fossils that have been discovered so far could represent only the tiniest fraction of the total number of fossils in existence. So our present fossil collection could be so small as to be "statistically insignificant". An election result can't be decided if only 0.01% of the votes have been counted, can it?

Furthermore, since there is no way of knowing the total number of fossils in existence, there is no way of knowing when a "statistically significant" number of fossils have been collected. In which case, the fossil record can never be safely used as definitive empirical evidence for evolution.

Let's add statistics to the list of subjects that you know nothing about, shall we?

Did it ever occur to you to wonder why scientists, who are steeped in the notion of statistical significance and use it daily as one of their most commonplace tools, have never availed themselves of your remarkable argument?

Here's a hint: it's because they understand the concept. And because they aren't idiots.


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Coyote
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Posts: 6037
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 546 of 580 (824734)
12-02-2017 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Dredge
12-02-2017 4:26 PM


Creation "science" at work
Well, many fossils have been found but they cannot be submitted as evidence for evolution.

Absolute nonsense, and creationist wishful thinking to boot.

You seem eager to disprove all of evolution based on one fossil (Nebraska Man), but can't accept tens or hundreds of thousands of fossils that show just the opposite?

Creation "science" at work, eh?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 547 of 580 (824738)
12-02-2017 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Dredge
12-02-2017 4:26 PM


Well, many fossils have been found but they cannot be submitted as evidence for evolution. Here's why:
The fossils that have been discovered so far could represent only the tiniest fraction of the total number of fossils in existence. So our present fossil collection could be so small as to be "statistically insignificant". An election result can't be decided if only 0.01% of the votes have been counted, can it?
Furthermore, since there is no way of knowing the total number of fossils in existence, there is no way of knowing when a "statistically significant" number of fossils have been collected. In which case, the fossil record can never be safely used as definitive empirical evidence for evolution.

The great thing about your latest bullshit is that it can be applied with equal facility to everything else in science. What proportion of the mass in the universe have we tested to see if it really does obey the law of gravity? Hardly any, and so the observations we have made "cannot be submitted as evidence". What proportion of the atoms in the universe have we observed to conform to the laws of chemistry? Surely it is "only the tiniest fraction". And so all of the observations we have made are not "statistically significant" according to your bizarre, ignorant use of that phrase, and so " can never be safely used as definitive empirical evidence".

Congratulations, you have proved that all of science is unscientific. That was easy; that was surprisingly easy. The task of convincing everyone of your discovery will probably be a little harder.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 548 of 580 (824785)
12-03-2017 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by Dr Adequate
12-02-2017 7:33 PM


This is not an argument.
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dwise1
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Posts: 3028
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 549 of 580 (824787)
12-03-2017 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Dredge
12-03-2017 5:20 PM


This is not an argument.

Nor is that.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 550 of 580 (824788)
12-03-2017 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by Tangle
12-01-2017 8:46 AM


George Orwell was great. He worked for the BBC (a very left-wing organisation) for two years and later said it "hates intelligence" and described it as "a cross between a girls school and a mental asylum."

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 551 of 580 (824789)
12-03-2017 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by Percy
12-02-2017 5:45 PM


You are assuming that the same statistical criteria that apply to electronic circuits can be applied to fossils. Maybe they can, I don't know; they they are very different animals.
This message is a reply to:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 552 of 580 (824790)
12-03-2017 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 537 by RAZD
12-01-2017 11:50 AM


Re: why bother?
Well may you speak of "value". The theory that all life on earth evolved from a microbe has contributed nothing to the advancement of science and therefore has no scientific value at all.

---------------------

Darwinism is overflowing with claims that can't be demonstrated. For example, how can it be demonstrated that a piece of a reptile's jaw bone evolved into the bones of the inner ear of a mammal?


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Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 553 of 580 (824791)
12-03-2017 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by Pressie
12-01-2017 8:04 AM


Re: what a pathetic God/World/Univers Dredge markets
Incidentally, could a pig with wings be fitted into a nested hierarchy?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 554 of 580 (824792)
12-03-2017 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by RAZD
12-02-2017 5:17 PM


Re: Fossils are a falsification tests
RAZD writes:

We don't need evidence for evolution, we know it is happening all around us


What is "happening all around us" that can be used as evidence that all life on earth evolved from a microbe?

As you have seen, all fossils found fall into nested hierarchies, all fossils found can be explained by evolution, including all the intermediate forms.

A story doesn't equal a fact.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 555 of 580 (824793)
12-03-2017 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Dredge
12-03-2017 5:29 PM


Re: what a pathetic God/World/Univers Dredge markets
Apart from anything else, trolling is just fucking irritating

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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