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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Dredge
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 703
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 586 of 2886 (825437)
12-14-2017 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by RAZD
12-06-2017 9:57 AM


Re: what is macroevolution
RAZD writes:

Care to give us your definition of macroevolution so that we can talk about it the same way? What is macroevolution?


My fragile, egg-shell mind is having trouble dealing with this question. Please don't ask it again.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2017 9:57 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by RAZD, posted 12-15-2017 9:46 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10883
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(2)
Message 587 of 2886 (825445)
12-14-2017 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 582 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:08 PM


Re: what a pathetic God/World/Univers Dredge markets
Catholics who accept evolution are not practising true Catholicism.
Wait a minute...didnt the Holy See himself condone evolution? Or is he too an imitator?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:08 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 588 of 2886 (825448)
12-14-2017 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:19 PM


Dredge writes:

quote:
Okay. It's been a very long time since I studied statistics but it seems weird to me that these predictions can be made without knowing the totlal size of the electorate. My fragile, egg-shell mind has a great of trouble dealing with that. Someone somewhere better be able to provide a mathematical proof for such a freaky fact, otherwise there's going to be hell to pay.

Why do I get the feeling that you never actually studied statistics?

Sample size =

Where Z is the Z-score for your confidence level (do you need to be shown how to calculate this...do you know that you can simply look it up?), σ is the standard deviation, and E is the margin of error. You will note that the population size isn't included for it isn't truly important. It might make a difference for small populations, but that only serves to drive down the sample size. If you only have 100 people in the population, the sample size isn't as large. But if the population is in the millions, your sample size will only be in the hundreds.

For example, a confidence level of 95% with a standard deviation of 0.5 and a margin of error of 5%, your sample size is only 385. With a margin of error of 3%, it's only 1067. Shoot for a 99% confidence with a 3% margin of error, you only need 1843.

Now, let's see if you really did study statistics: What assumption has been made regarding this sample?

quote:
Anyhow, I would imagine a statistical analysis of fossils would be much more complicated and prone to uncertainties than the statistical analysis of an election.

Nope. Different, yes, but not "much more complicated and prone to uncertainties." In fact, archaeological evidence is much more solid than for an election: We have no way to track a vote to an individual so we can only go by self-reporting through exit polls. With archaeological evidence, we have the fossil right in front of us.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:19 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19524
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 589 of 2886 (825474)
12-15-2017 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 586 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:23 PM


Re: what is macroevolution
RAZD writes:

Care to give us your definition of macroevolution so that we can talk about it the same way? What is macroevolution?


My fragile, egg-shell mind is having trouble dealing with this question. Please don't ask it again.

And yet you had no trouble talking about macroevolution in Message 575 where you said:

... and therefore has nothing to do with macroevolutionary changes.

... I fail to see how Green Warblers speciating into more Green Warblers is evidence that they are on there way to evolving into eagles or pelicans or whatever. ...

So your answer doesn't help me understand what is "happening all around us" that provides evidence of macroevolution.

So how can I help you understand "macroevolution" if you don't have some idea of what the term means - even if it is just some vague idea. That is why I also asked (Message 580):

In science macroevolution is defined as anagenesis plus cladogenesis, which you seem to agree occurs around us. What else do you expect to occur?

Italics added for emphasis.

Let us know what else you expect to occur, and then we can discuss how realistic that expectation is.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:23 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19524
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 590 of 2886 (825478)
12-15-2017 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:04 PM


theory and the scientific process
You can't prove that a piece of a reptile's jaw bone evolved into the inner ear bones of a mammal - you can't even prove that such a thing is possible.

Once again we see a misunderstanding of how science works. In science theories cannot be proven, they can be validated or invalidated. Theories make predictions that can be used as tests of the theory: if they fail the test then the theory is invalidated and needs to be revised or discarded, but if they pass the test the theory is validated - but not proven, because the next test could invalidate it.

The theory of evolution then predicts that IF the mammalian ear structure developed from the reptilian ear structure by evolutionary processes, THEN there would be intermediates between these structures.

So this is a test of the theory: ARE THERE INTERMEDIATES?

Yes.

In fact there are many in the fossil record that show a progression over time from the reptilian jaw/ear structure (where the single ear bone is attached to the three bone jaw) to the mammalian jaw/ear structure (where the three bone ear is separated from the single jaw bone). This includes several species with double jointed jaws (the original reptilian joint and the new mammalian joint). Others show differences in the sizes of these bones as they change over time, adapting to the new structure.

When placed in their respective locations within the spacio-temporal matrix they form a linear progression from one ancestral state to the newer derived state, not just one intermediate but intermediates between intermediates between intermediates -- just as predicted by evolution.

This is not "proof" ... but it is strong validation of the theory. Consider that there is no reason for such gradations of intermediates to exist if evolution is not the process involved.

Another teachable moment brought to you by Dredge

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:04 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by Dredge, posted 12-26-2017 12:35 AM RAZD has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 591 of 2886 (825490)
12-15-2017 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 583 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:15 PM


Dredge writes:

Don't mention the Green Party ever again; they're demonic.


So good stewardship to you is "demonic"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:15 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16025
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 592 of 2886 (825493)
12-15-2017 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 582 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:08 PM


Re: what a pathetic God/World/Univers Dredge markets
I only have one religion - Catholicism. Catholics who accept evolution are not practising true Catholicism.

Does that include the Pope?

But perhaps we are digressing from the topic, which is how we have the fossils, and win.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:08 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 595 by Dredge, posted 12-18-2017 12:04 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16025
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 593 of 2886 (825494)
12-15-2017 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:04 PM


Re: why bother?
You can't prove that a piece of a reptile's jaw bone evolved into the inner ear bones of a mammal - you can't even prove that such a thing is possible. So all you have is a story based on endless assumptions and blind faith. Only in the fake science of evolution do assumptions and blind faith carry the same weight as empirical evidence.

We have empirical evidence. Specifically, we have the fossils. We win.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:04 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16025
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 594 of 2886 (825500)
12-15-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 584 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:19 PM


Anyhow, I would imagine a statistical analysis of fossils would be much more complicated and prone to uncertainties than the statistical analysis of an election.

But no-one has presented a statistical analysis of fossils in this thread. Least of all your good self. I have just said that there are intermediate forms.

If I said there was evidence for the existence of brown dogs, and gave you three dozen examples of brown dogs, then how would it even be relevant for you to discuss how many other dogs there are? I would reply: we have the brown dogs. We win. Statistics doesn't come into it. Now if I had claimed that this proved that all dogs were brown, or that this proved that 60% of dogs were brown, then it might be time to talk about how many dogs there are that I haven't looked at, and how big my sample size was, and to discuss p-values, and to ask how random my sample was. But if I merely assert that this proves that there are brown dogs, how would statistics even be relevant to my assertion?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:19 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 703
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 595 of 2886 (825793)
12-18-2017 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 592 by Dr Adequate
12-15-2017 11:07 AM


Re: what a pathetic God/World/Univers Dredge markets
DrAdequate writes:

Does that include the Pope?

Of course it does. You can't expect much from a Jesuit. The Jesuits are the most corrupted order in a very corrupted Church.

But perhaps we are digressing from the topic, which is how we have the fossils, and win.

What do you "win"?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-15-2017 11:07 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 597 by Stile, posted 12-19-2017 10:29 AM Dredge has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1111
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 596 of 2886 (825794)
12-18-2017 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 582 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:08 PM


Christians should be able to allow for God using agencies. Like Evolution to make man
quote:

Catholics who accept evolution are not practising true Catholicism.

But God used Satan to make David take the census, right?

Why can't God use Satan or whatever agent he happens to use to create man?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:08 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by Dredge, posted 12-22-2017 10:32 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3193
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 597 of 2886 (825906)
12-19-2017 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 595 by Dredge
12-18-2017 12:04 AM


Re: what a pathetic God/World/Univers Dredge markets
Dredge writes:

DrAdequate writes:

But perhaps we are digressing from the topic, which is how we have the fossils, and win.

What do you "win"?

The EvC argument.

Nothing more, nothing less.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by Dredge, posted 12-18-2017 12:04 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by Dredge, posted 12-22-2017 10:35 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
AlexCaledin
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 41
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


Message 598 of 2886 (825936)
12-19-2017 2:00 PM


- quite analogous to fossils, you have the Fourier components of any recorded "Meow" sound from a cat; so you may well be asserting that the sound is formed by those sine waves - existing from infinite past - and not by a cat some minutes ago. So, if you want to believe in registered sounds only and not in any cats, you win the argument likewise.
    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5867
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 599 of 2886 (825938)
12-19-2017 2:03 PM


^^^ gotta be post of the month.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 703
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 600 of 2886 (826135)
12-22-2017 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by LamarkNewAge
12-18-2017 12:25 AM


Re: Christians should be able to allow for God using agencies. Like Evolution to make man
Your questions are too deep for my shallow, fragile, egg-shell mind. Please do not ask them again.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-18-2017 12:25 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-24-2017 12:26 AM Dredge has responded
 Message 628 by Aussie, posted 12-27-2017 1:03 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
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