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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
Tangle
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Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1 of 305 (768126)
09-08-2015 3:47 AM


The current pope is making changes to the rules of being a Catholic.

Last week he said that priests could forgive those who have had abortions - previously impossible; this week he says that divorced Catholics can remarry; previously impossible without a papal annulment, remember Henry VIII?

Catholics now allow married priests that have switched from other beliefs of the Christian franchise into the Catholic priesthood - though existing Catholic priests may not marry (but for how long, given the massive decline in new priest recruits?) Many years ago it stopped being a 'sin' to eat meat on friday and it became a matter of 'conscience' whether a Catholic used birth control - but only in the educated West of course.

Back in 2007, the then pope did the most extraordinary thing of abolishing limbo - the place where babies that haven't been baptised had been sent for over 800 years instead of heaven, hell or purgatory.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-of-limbo-after-800-years.html

So, religions make stuff up and change their beliefs to suit the times they operate in. What pragmatic, flexible corporations, these religions are. One wonders just what else they might have made up......


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3827
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 305 (768128)
09-08-2015 4:54 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Catholics are making it up. thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Faith
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 3 of 305 (768130)
09-08-2015 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
09-08-2015 3:47 AM


So, religions make stuff up and change their beliefs to suit the times they operate in. What pragmatic, flexible corporations, these religions are. One wonders just what else they might have made up......

Well, the RCC has invented itself out of whole cloth. I wouldn't use them as the example for what all "religions" do. What ELSE the RCC has made up includes the claim that the apostle Peter was the first Pope in Rome and all Popes since him acquire his authority in "apostolic succession." There is absolutely no evidence Peter was ever in Rome, and quite a bit of evidence from scripture that he wasn't there when Paul wrote letters to Rome not mentioning him; but they claim he reigned there as Pope for 27 years.

They also made up various forgeries designed to bestow worldly power on the institution, such as the Donation of Constantine which purported to be a document written by Emperor Constantine granting the powers and privileges of the Roman Emperor to the RC Church, or something like that. It's been recognized as a forgery even by Catholic historians so I'm not making this up. Another forgery was called the Decretals of Isidore but I only remember the title and not what it was supposed to accomplish.

They also invented a whole pantheon of "saints" by simply transferring the names of various Roman gods to nonexistent "Christians."

They invented the concept of Purgatory. It doesn't exist in scripture. And Limbo, which has since been dropped.

They invented the idea that you could pay someone's way out of Purgatory by buying "Indulgences." That's what got Luther riled up initially. He expected the pope in his day to see the falseness of such an idea but instead was shocked when the Pope found the fault in him instead. The money from the indulgences financed the building of the basilica in Rome.

They invented the idea that Mary the mother of Jesus was a perpetual virgin, when scripture says she had other children besides Jesus. They also elevated her to a status equal with Jesus in the power of salvation whereas scripture keeps her in the background while nevertheless acknowledging her blessed status in being the mother of the Messiah.

Most of the trappings of the RCC, the clothing, the headgear, the rituals (processions) were directly inherited from the Roman Caesars. The title Pontifex Maximus, which gives the Pope the title "Pontiff" has nothing whatever to do with Christianity, but it was a title the Caesars possessed in their role at the head of Roman pagan religion.

This is just the first few things I think of off the top of my head. The RCC is an amazing creation that has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity although they've managed to sell themselves as its representative.

ABE: A few more: The enforced celibacy of priests is not in scripture or the early church either. In fact if you're going to say Peter was the first Pope you have to ignore the fact that scripture clearly says he was married.

Other inventions, or really practices taken from pagan Rome and incorporated into the RCC, include the use of incense, the use of candles, the use of the rosary. All these are pagan practices.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 305 (768131)
09-08-2015 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
09-08-2015 3:47 AM


He's also declared that atheists can be saved without changing their beliefs.

There's also reason to believe he may come out in favor of gay marriage when this Family Conference comes up soon. At least there should be signs he's pushing for it even if it won't pass right away.

All this of course is based on Papal Infallibility which was made church law in 1870.

The only other "church" I know of that regularly changes its doctrines to suit the times is Mormonism. They changed their pro-polygamy laws because they were causing them too much trouble, and they took back their racist views of blacks.

Bible-based Protestant Christianity is at least consistent in sticking to what the Bible says. There may be disagreements about what it says on minor points but there isn't any of this making things up and changing doctrines to suit the times.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2718
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 5 of 305 (768132)
09-08-2015 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
09-08-2015 3:47 AM


"Evvvverrrr-RREeeeEEeee sperrrrem is sacred everreerreeee sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted God get quite irate!!!"~Monty Python TheMeaning of Life

I just look at the current changes as Catholicism for the 21st century.

The church I believe picked the previous pope knowing he was a hard liner conservative. They also knew he was quite old and would not sit long. So the Vatican was able to keep the conservative face for a bit of time but knew that progressive changes were needed to be made since church attendance is on the decline along with diminishing donations. (just a theory of mine)

Then they picked a younger more progressive pope.
He has the authority to "make stuff up." Just like King Henry had the authority to anoint himself the head of the Church of England. Yes made stuff up.

Sensing a theme here. They all make stuff up!

I personally am glad these, (imo) positive changes to this ancient institution are being implemented.

The Catholic church and it's policies, be they made up or not, are still a institution that grounds and forms a positive influence in many peoples lives.

I can see why non believers feel the Catholics are making stuff up though, many Catholics are probably thinking the same thing.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6012
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 6 of 305 (768133)
09-08-2015 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by 1.61803
09-08-2015 9:58 AM


Tangle writes:

Sensing a theme here. They all make stuff up!

And always have...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2718
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 7 of 305 (768134)
09-08-2015 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
09-08-2015 9:44 AM


Faith writes:

Bible-based Protestant Christianity is at least consistent in sticking to what the Bible says. There may be disagreements about what it says on minor points but there isn't any of this making things up and changing doctrines to suit the times.

Yes, yes it's good to know we can count on the Protestants to double down on unwavering made up stuff that seems to perpetuate intolerance, ignorance and pious aggrandizing.

Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5292
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 8 of 305 (768136)
09-08-2015 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
09-08-2015 9:44 AM


Bible-based Protestant Christianity is at least consistent in sticking to what the Bible says. There may be disagreements about what it says on minor points but there isn't any of this making things up and changing doctrines to suit the times.

Not so much, Faith. Women wore hats and couldn't wear pants to church when I was a kid - a long time ago, but not that long. Read this:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/twain01.htm


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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9992
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 9 of 305 (768138)
09-08-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
09-08-2015 3:47 AM


So, religions make stuff up and change their beliefs to suit the times they operate in.

I wonder what would be more foolish; religions that never change regardless of any reasoning or thought or mores or one that has found the need to change over time and has done so.

Many of the facets of religions are trappings that are far from the essence or central tenets of faith. I see here that at least one Protestant holds the view that such a statement does not apply to their circumstance, but that view is nonsense. Protestantism is full of stuff that is primarily traditional and completely non essential to Christianity. Fortunately, you can usually find one or more churches that does without the baggage you find in another church.

Catholicism is far older than many religious sects and has accumulated far more ancient baggage. Much of the baggage represents reasons why people decide to be or not to be Catholics. I see absolutely no problem with attempts to shed some of that baggage as needed.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


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ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 10 of 305 (768139)
09-08-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
09-08-2015 9:44 AM


Faith writes:

Bible-based Protestant Christianity....


Oxymoron.
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 11 of 305 (768147)
09-08-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
09-08-2015 9:44 AM


The only other "church" I know of that regularly changes its doctrines to suit the times is Mormonism. [...] Bible-based Protestant Christianity is at least consistent in sticking to what the Bible says. There may be disagreements about what it says on minor points but there isn't any of this making things up and changing doctrines to suit the times.

*cough* usury *cough*


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kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1405
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 12 of 305 (768149)
09-08-2015 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
09-08-2015 3:47 AM



The current pope is making changes to the rules of being a Catholic.

Last week he said that priests could forgive those who have had abortions - previously impossible; this week he says that divorced Catholics can remarry; previously impossible without a papal annulment, remember Henry VIII?

Catholics now allow married priests that have switched from other beliefs of the Christian franchise into the Catholic priesthood - though existing Catholic priests may not marry (but for how long, given the massive decline in new priest recruits?) Many years ago it stopped being a 'sin' to eat meat on friday and it became a matter of 'conscience' whether a Catholic used birth control - but only in the educated West of course.

Back in 2007, the then pope did the most extraordinary thing of abolishing limbo - the place where babies that haven't been baptised had been sent for over 800 years instead of heaven, hell or purgatory.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-of-limbo-after-800-years.html

So, religions make stuff up and change their beliefs to suit the times they operate in. What pragmatic, flexible corporations, these religions are. One wonders just what else they might have made up......


One big problem is that Roman Catholicism has proclaimed Tradition (including official prououncements of the RCC) to be authoritative and inerrant, on an equal footing with Scripture. If RCC proclamations are inerrant, they shouldn't change over time. Yet they do.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. Erwin Schroedinger


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jar
Member
Posts: 29433
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 13 of 305 (768153)
09-08-2015 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
09-08-2015 9:44 AM


Paul just made stuff up to suit the times and audience
Come on Faith, Christianity has been just making stuff up and changing the rules to suit the times and the audience since Paul stated marketing his new creation.

Even the basics like the Great Commission evolved over time to meet marketing demands. See The evolution of the Great Commission over time..


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Faith
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 305 (768162)
09-08-2015 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coragyps
09-08-2015 11:31 AM


Not so much, Faith. Women wore hats and couldn't wear pants to church when I was a kid - a long time ago, but not that long.

That's a good point. All the churches stopped requiring women to wear hats -- I wasn't aware of the rule about pants -- around the 60s. You see pictures of women in hats in church in the 50s but not afterward. And that was a change in denial of the Bible which says woman are to cover our heads in church. I have a whole blog on that subject. The attempts to reinterpret that scripture are indefensible it seems to me. Interesting though that black women still wear hats to church.

I suppose pants were considered men's garb and scripture does forbid dressing like the opposite sex but I wasn't aware there was an issue about it. There's nothing essentially masculine about pants any more. Since I became a believer, though, there is definitely a more casual way of dressing than there used to be.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 15 of 305 (768164)
09-08-2015 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
09-08-2015 11:45 AM


NoNukes writes:

I wonder what would be more foolish; religions that never change regardless of any reasoning or thought or mores or one that has found the need to change over time and has done so.

Personally I'm rather disappointed, the more out of touch with everyday realities the religions become the faster they disappear.

But, it's an indictment of religions that their 'truths' are abandonned when they become inconvenient. It's very clear that the Catholic church simply made up all sorts of nonsense, probably as a means of control over their customers. Why should anyone believe anything they say?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 09-08-2015 11:45 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by NoNukes, posted 09-08-2015 6:09 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 09-08-2015 11:14 PM Tangle has responded

  
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