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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 241 of 321 (769186)
09-17-2015 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by petrophysics1
09-16-2015 8:13 PM


Re: Papal Infallibility
petro writes:

Compare that to Tangle and Faith who know everything about existence and tell you so again and again and again...........

Don't confuse critiquing religious belief with knowing everything - or even anything - about existence. The two are entirely different.

So when was the last time a pope did this?

That can't be answered because although it's a declared fact that popes may speak infallibly nobody can agree when he does - which is the get out of jail clause. Most say that Mary's virginity and her ascendance to heaven is an infallible statement but they squirm about it. Mary though, is beyond doubt a big Catholic icon.

I have no time to get into this now, but this gives a reasonable - ie critical - summary

Nobody knows just when the Pope supposedly is speaking infallibly and when he isn't, and he's to be obeyed even when he isn't speaking infallibly. This reasoning allows the Roman Catholic Church to derive all of the benefits of claiming infallibility, such as having hundreds of millions of people obey it, while avoiding the responsibilities of claiming infallibility.

http://www.inplainsite.org/...bility_papal_infallibilit.html

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by petrophysics1, posted 09-16-2015 8:13 PM petrophysics1 has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1360
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 242 of 321 (769549)
09-22-2015 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by petrophysics1
09-16-2015 8:13 PM


Re: Papal Infallibility
So when was the last time a pope did this?

That's not so easy a question to answer. Probably the last indisputibly 'infallible' statement was the one I quoted the intro to by Pius XII, which dictates that Mary "was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory" after finishing her work here on earth. This one we can be confident of its infallibility, since the Pope not only announced by the authority of Jesus and the apostles, but accompanied it with the following anathema:

quote:
Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.

John Paul II may also have taught an infallible doctrine, that women could not be ordained as priests, but this case is not so clear, since he wasn't as explicit about it. He answered the question as to whether the inadmissability of women priests was part of the Deposit of Faith in the affirmative. Opponents of female priests argue this makes it infallible, since the Deposit of Faith is by definition the infallible teachings of the Church, while supporters of female ordination protest that a teaching can't be considered infallible without going through all the forms.

And do you disagree with what he said

I don't believe in God or heaven, so it's hard to agree with the church on what happened to Mary when she died!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by petrophysics1, posted 09-16-2015 8:13 PM petrophysics1 has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1360
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 243 of 321 (769550)
09-22-2015 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Tangle
09-17-2015 5:45 AM


Re: Papal Infallibility
I have given several examples of the church changing its mind over what was once hard and fast fact as preached in its churches and schools. The fact that Vatican accademics have squabbled over some of them, is irrelevant. If you just take the limbo fantasy, it was hammered into Catholic parents that you must baptise your newborn quickly or risk it never finding everlasting happiness. That was definately a core belief - it was a heaven or not event for everyday Catholics.

Changing its mind over what was taught in some of its churches and schools. Only some, because the church has always housed quite a diversity of opinion. And limbo is something Catholics have argued about amongst themselves for a long time.

I went and did a bit of reading about the church's 'abandonment' of limbo, and as far as I can see, it has not officially been abandoned. I had a readthrough of the Vatican's pronouncement on Limbo from 2007. It's quite a long read, full of obscure theological wrangling, but the key point is that it concludes thusly:

quote:
Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the Beatific Vision. We emphasise that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us

The church has not cast limbo away. They've simply clarified that they're still not sure.

Sorry that is incomplete by a very long margin and would define anyone calling themselves a Christin. To be a Catholic you have to buy into the whole 'tradition' which is defined by the Catechism. An extraordinary work of fiction

Two interesting things to note about the Catechism:

1. It doesn't mention Limbo
2. It admits that the Church's understanding of the faith it preaches will grow over time as believers think things through more.

Edited by caffeine, : tags

Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2015 5:45 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2015 12:52 PM caffeine has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 244 of 321 (769565)
09-22-2015 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by caffeine
09-22-2015 9:05 AM


Re: Papal Infallibility
caffeine writes:

Changing its mind over what was taught in some of its churches and schools. Only some, because the church has always housed quite a diversity of opinion. And limbo is something Catholics have argued about amongst themselves for a long time.

I can witness to the fact that limbo was a universal teaching in UK and Ireland and I would guess Continental Europe too. In fact I doubt that there was any church teaching something different anywhere until latterly when it was de facto dumped. If you know of anywhere but in the Vatican's corridors where this was different, I'd like to know of it.

By complete chance there was an Irish woman talking about how she was treated by the church when her baby died soon after birth on the radio last night. The priest told her that her child could not be buried on sanctified ground. It was taken away and she doesn't know where to this day. There is a very big difference between bishops in the Vatican counting angels on pinheads and actual teachings and practices in towns and villages around the globe.

The church has not cast limbo away. They've simply clarified that they're still not sure.

The church HAS cast limbo away. It's the practical effects on the ground that matters, not these clever men in dresses thinking deeply about their supernatural fantasies. Before the change parents where told that their child was destined for everlating nowhere, that they would never meet up with him again and that he couldn't even share a graveyard with them. Now all that has been done away with. And the guys in purple know exactly the same as they did before the change of policy - ie nothing.

Two interesting things to note about the Catechism:

1. It doesn't mention Limbo
2. It admits that the Church's understanding of the faith it preaches will grow over time as believers think things through more.

Yes, handily they can have a policy for which they have no concievable knowledge, then abandon it with exactly the same lack of knowledge. Catholics are obliged to accept the 'traditions' of the church which can be changed as convenient.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by caffeine, posted 09-22-2015 9:05 AM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by caffeine, posted 09-22-2015 1:43 PM Tangle has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1360
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 245 of 321 (769576)
09-22-2015 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Tangle
09-22-2015 12:52 PM


Re: Papal Infallibility
I can witness to the fact that limbo was a universal teaching in UK and Ireland and I would guess Continental Europe too.

Obviously that's not true, as you haven't been to every place in which Catholic doctrine was taught. I don't recall being taught anything about limbo in Catholic school (though it's of course possible I've just forgotten).

In fact I doubt that there was any church teaching something different anywhere until latterly when it was de facto dumped. If you know of anywhere but in the Vatican's corridors where this was different, I'd like to know of it.

Obviously I can't point to some specific example of a priest's teachings somewhere in the world, but I can point out that The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, published in 1952 - a very popular book designed to quickly summarise Church dogma for the "busy working priest" (not my words) - discussed various plausible (from a Catholic viewpoint) ways in which unbaptised infants could nevertheless go to heaven.

The church HAS cast limbo away. It's the practical effects on the ground that matters, not these clever men in dresses thinking deeply about their supernatural fantasies. Before the change parents where told that their child was destined for everlating nowhere, that they would never meet up with him again and that he couldn't even share a graveyard with them. Now all that has been done away with. And the guys in purple know exactly the same as they did before the change of policy - ie nothing.

But of course in practice 'in towns and villages around the globe' the doctrine of limbo is certainly still being taught. Do you think that priests who believe in an idea are going to stop teaching it, when the Vatican's top theologians are unwilling to give a clear answer? There has been no sudden change on this issue.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2015 12:52 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2015 4:52 PM caffeine has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 246 of 321 (769588)
09-22-2015 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by caffeine
09-22-2015 1:43 PM


Re: Papal Infallibility
Caffeine writes:

But of course in practice 'in towns and villages around the globe' the doctrine of limbo is certainly still being taught.

No doubt some fundamentalist idiots are still trying to threaten their flock with it but there's very little point if the flock know that the pope has ruled it out.

There has been no sudden change on this issue.

On the contrary, it suddenly changed on the 19th April 2007 with the publication of . On the 18th infacts where condemned to never see the blessed visage of the saviour, on the 20th, it's 'come on in, we're having a party'.

Catholics are still making it up. It's Alice in Wonderland stuff

Beyond the headlines you encounter even larger problems. An April 21 Associated Press article by Nicole Winfield quotes Fr. Richard McBrien (professor of theology at Notre Dame and noted dissenter) as saying, "If theres no limbo and were not going to revert to St. Augustines teaching that unbaptized infants go to hell, were left with only one option, namely, that everyone is born in the state of grace . . . Baptism does not exist to wipe away the stain of original sin, but to initiate one into the Church." On the other end of the spectrum, Kenneth Wolfe, columnist for The Remnant, was quoted in Coopermans article as saying, "The Vatican is suggesting that salvation is possible without baptism. That is heresy."

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by caffeine, posted 09-22-2015 1:43 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by caffeine, posted 09-23-2015 12:21 PM Tangle has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1360
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 247 of 321 (769623)
09-23-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Tangle
09-22-2015 4:52 PM


Re: Papal Infallibility
On the contrary, it suddenly changed on the 19th April 2007 with the publication of .

Allow me to fill in the bit missing at the end of that sentence. The document in question was "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die without Being Baptized." That was the one that I quoted a few posts ago. The one that concludes that there is hope unbaptised children might be able to go to heaven, but no certainty.

So let's review - prior to 19th April 2007:

- the Pope (Benedict) had often said he rejected the doctrine of limbo (since long before he became Pope)
- common textbooks on Catholic dogma taught alternatives to limbo
- the Catechism of the Catholic Church didn't mention limbo.

Then, on 19th April 2007, the Vatican published a document declaring that they did not know if limbo exists!

As a result, none of the above changed, and Catholic clergy are still permitted to teach about limbo if they like, because it is a teaching not condemned by the Church,

All these facts have already been explained, but if you're only interested in how events are framed by headline writers then I'm done.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2015 4:52 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2015 4:38 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 248 of 321 (769643)
09-23-2015 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by caffeine
09-23-2015 12:21 PM


Re: Papal Infallibility
caffein writes:

All these facts have already been explained, but if you're only interested in how events are framed by headline writers then I'm done.

The 'facts' that you have explained completely totally ignore what was actually happening on the ground and the amazing volte face that the church has made over this issue.

You have nothing to say about the woman who's child could not be buried in a Catholic graveyard because of this. You seem content to take the navel gazing and PR comms from the Vatican as legitimate argument - "nothing has changed". Nothing to see here, please move on.

Nothing except that what was taught as routine is no longer policy and is now quietly being buried in the most obscure language possible. Limbo has been shunted into the long grass, another modern embarrassment to be quietly buried under a pretence that we never thought that way anyway. What cobblers, it was drummed into the heads of everyone that ever attended a Catholic school or went to a Catholic baptism, it's been around for centuries and we're supposed to now just pretend it never happened?

It seems that you've swallowed the scam whole.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by caffeine, posted 09-23-2015 12:21 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 249 of 321 (770791)
10-14-2015 6:36 AM


The Pope is currently running a conclave on the family. Women are, of course, excluded. A fact that made one disgruntled Catholic woman remark that the conclave is being held by 300 celebate men in dresses.

These weird and befuddled creatures will shortly announce their views to the world on matters of which they have absolutely no knowledge - sex, contraception, gender disforia, adult same sex relationships and just, well, families. I just can't wait.

Thinking about it though, they do, of course have substantial knowledge of same sex relationships.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by AZPaul3, posted 10-14-2015 7:36 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 10-14-2015 11:51 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 10-14-2015 2:54 PM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 250 of 321 (770792)
10-14-2015 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Tangle
10-14-2015 6:36 AM


But the conclave is not about pedophilia, so they're way outside their experienced knowledge base.
This message is a reply to:
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ringo
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Posts: 14002
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 251 of 321 (770810)
10-14-2015 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Tangle
10-14-2015 6:36 AM


Tangle writes:

These weird and befuddled creatures will shortly announce their views to the world on matters of which they have absolutely no knowledge - sex, contraception, gender disforia, adult same sex relationships and just, well, families.


So they can be objective.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Tangle, posted 10-14-2015 6:36 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26789
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 252 of 321 (770827)
10-14-2015 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Tangle
10-14-2015 6:36 AM


Golly gee, Tangle, don't you know the Pope is the rightful ruler of this world, according to RCC official doctrine? He's "God on earth," don't you know? Therefore he has every right to pronounce on absolutely anything and everything pertaining to human life.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Tangle, posted 10-14-2015 6:36 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 257 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2015 3:08 AM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
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Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 253 of 321 (770834)
10-14-2015 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
10-14-2015 2:54 PM


Golly gee, Tangle, don't you know the Pope is the rightful ruler of this world, according to RCC official doctrine? He's "God on earth,"

Please show catholic doctrinal source for this. I was raised Catholic and never knew this.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 10-14-2015 2:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Modulous
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Posts: 7537
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 254 of 321 (770849)
10-14-2015 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
10-14-2015 2:54 PM


Golly gee, Tangle, don't you know the Pope is the rightful ruler of this world

Isn't that Haile Selassie?

He's "God on earth," don't you know?

This concept contravenes mainstream Catholic dogma and would be regarded as blasphemous - you should have rejected the lie as soon as you read it.

He's the 'vicar of Christ' and bishop of Rome. Not Christ. He holds the keys to heaven, but is not its creator. He has the same capacity as the authors of scripture to be infallible in all the right ways when the appropriate context is met.

Therefore he has every right to pronounce on absolutely anything and everything pertaining to human life.

No - his status as a god or a vicar does not give him every right etc. It's the fact that he has freedom of speech that does that. You have it to, and you too pronounce on all manners of issues pertaining to human life. I dare say if you had an audience of the Pope's size, all eager for your pronouncements, we'd hear a lot more of your pronouncements.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 10-14-2015 2:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 10-14-2015 5:55 PM Modulous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26789
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 255 of 321 (770854)
10-14-2015 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Modulous
10-14-2015 4:57 PM


You are obviously ignorant of the whole range of doctrines of the RCC, which they take quite seriously even if they give the poor deluded rank and file some more palatable stuff to keep them docile. They will call their own doctrines blasphemous if necessary at any given time, then weasel around to defending them later.

However, it's all apparent anyway if you know what it all really means. For instance, "vicar of Christ" literally means "substitute for Christ" which is as good as calling him the Antichrist by biblical standards. Which of course he is. It's also the usurpation of the role of the Holy Spirit, who is Christ's presence on earth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Modulous, posted 10-14-2015 4:57 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
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