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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 16 of 507 (768169)
09-08-2015 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
09-08-2015 4:12 PM


But, it's an indictment of religions that their 'truths' are abandonned when they become inconvenient. It's very clear that the Catholic church simply made up all sorts of nonsense, probably as a means of control over their customers.
Is an abandoned doctrine really any kind of indictment? Is everything somebody believed some kind of inviolate truth? Do we really think less of Protestants because they are no longer doing witch hunts? Do we think less of Southern Baptists because they no longer claim that slavery has Biblical support? I certainly don't. People believed things for what they considered good reasons. Different people disagree and are in a position to make changes and have.
Most of the excess baggage of religion are things that are adopted for people and not because God requires them. If some stuff isn't working or if further thought shows that it does not make sense, the stuff ought to be dropped.
Why should anyone believe anything they say?
It is your choice what to believe and what not to believe regardless of what those leaders do. Besides, haven't you already made your decision regarding what you believe?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2015 4:12 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 09-08-2015 7:49 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 21 by MrHambre, posted 09-08-2015 10:47 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2015 2:32 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2015 2:32 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 17 of 507 (768170)
09-08-2015 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
09-08-2015 3:47 AM


The pope has decided to join the Catholic church.
That is to say, he has decided to go with the practices of the church, as they are seen in the parishes.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2015 3:47 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 507 (768173)
09-08-2015 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by NoNukes
09-08-2015 6:09 PM


Is an abandoned doctrine really any kind of indictment? Is everything somebody believed some kind of inviolate truth?
The RCC claims infallibility so yes to abandon an infallible doctrine is some kind of indictment.
Bible believing Protestants say the Bible is inerrant, so yes it is some kind of indictment if they abandon a Biblical tenet. However, racism is not a Biblical tenet and neither are witch hunts, which as I understand it occurred ONCE only and was immediately recognized as wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NoNukes, posted 09-08-2015 6:09 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by NoNukes, posted 09-08-2015 8:54 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 507 (768176)
09-08-2015 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
09-08-2015 7:49 PM


. However, racism is not a Biblical tenet and neither are witch hunts, which as I understand it occurred ONCE only and was immediately recognized as wrong.
I know I promised not to respond to you, but wow, is your understanding way off. It's almost as though we never discussed witch executions in these fora before.
Somehow a one time execution of witches in the United states occurred over a period extending from 1647 to 1692 in two different states. Here is a list of executions in the US from which you can glean the information yourself.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/ESPYyear.pdf
And if slavery is not a Biblical tenet, then it can be held in the same regard as Limbo. On the other hand, there are verses in the Bible that do justify slavery and some Protestants certainly did justify holding slaves using the Bible. How in the world you can justify some superior position of Protestantism on sticking to true doctrine by labeling slavery a not 'Biblical tenet' is beyond me.
Did you know that the Southern Baptist Church apologized for supporting slavery in 1995, which was 25 years after Mormons removed their racists views from official church doctrine?
No Christian church is perfect. They all endorse stuff that is somewhere between difficult to impossible to support Biblically. But nobody is much better than fundamentalists at picking out claiming the Biblical high road for their own brand of dogma.
I could make similar comments regarding Mormons and polygamy, but I'm sure most people can construct the argument for themselves.
Edited by NoNukes, : Change possessives to plurals.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 09-08-2015 7:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 09-08-2015 10:16 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 507 (768178)
09-08-2015 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by NoNukes
09-08-2015 8:54 PM


Those are executions of individuals, mostly at long intervals apart, by states, not by a church, although of course Massachusetts and Connecticut were strong Puritan colonies The Salem witch trials, which is of course what I had in mind, were the work of the church as I understood it. And that WAS a "witchhunt," which individual prosecutions for witchcraft were not. Nothing is said about the justice of the charges or the execution of them either. But the Salem witch trials were denounced by church leaders as the product of hysteria.
It's possible I never read your original claims, I don't know. When ten people pile on and the arguments are generally bad, as they are in this thread, and I'm then given a glaring white page to analyze which is hard on my eyes, I may very well not. Your argument that we should appreciate a church's changes of opinion to whatever the current fashion of political correctness prefers is not an argument I can respect since I am a Bible inerrantist, and I do tend to ignore a lot of what you say.
Slavery is at least IN the Bible, Limbo is not so the comparison is wholly bogus. But even in the NT we have Paul suggesting that a alaveowner free his slave, and we have NO suggestions that slavery is a good thing though it was clearly practiced widely in the Roman empire and the whole pagan world for that matter.
Do not want to argue any of this with you. Please return to ignoring me.
ABE: Oh, and of course any church can make errors as the slavery-defending churches did, but those errors never came to characterize an entire Church system as the RCC errors did, backed up by Papal Infallibility yet and continued for century upon century, until a modern Pope or Vatican II decided it would be best to, say, take away the prohibition on meat on Fridays, or include atheists under the RCC umbrella since of course the more members the better and so on and so forth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 21 of 507 (768180)
09-08-2015 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by NoNukes
09-08-2015 6:09 PM


Blessed are the Magnanimous
NoNukes writes:
if further thought shows that it does not make sense, the stuff ought to be dropped.
I agree. Believers can't win here: if they stick to their obsolete dogma, we accuse them of barbarism. But if they jettison any of their dogma and admit that contemporary believers aren't obliged to think that way, we accuse them of hypocrisy.
It's unclear what we think religious people should be allowed to do, short of abandoning their made-up beliefs and thinking exactly the way we do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NoNukes, posted 09-08-2015 6:09 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2015 3:16 AM MrHambre has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 507 (768181)
09-08-2015 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
09-08-2015 4:12 PM


Personally I'm rather disappointed, the more out of touch with everyday realities the religions become the faster they disappear.
Has this ever happened? Can you name even one religion that has actually disappeared because it is out of touch with current opinion?
The RCC boasts 1.2 billion members. Google says Islam has 1.57 billion. Although the RCC seems to be losing members in the West I'm not sure it makes any kind of difference in the end. Philadelphia is expecting a million or more to show up for the Pope's visit this month.
But, it's an indictment of religions that their 'truths' are abandonned when they become inconvenient. It's very clear that the Catholic church simply made up all sorts of nonsense, probably as a means of control over their customers. Why should anyone believe anything they say?
Probably because they don't really really believe any of it any more so they only care if the Pope says what they want to hear. This Pope is very leftist so EvCers ought to love him quite apart from any religious consistency in his views, or even because there isn't any. He's expected to speak on the importance of environmental issues, global warming etc. You all should love him. He'll want to tax the First World nations into poverty in the process but hey, that's just redistribution of wealth, a good thing of course. And if you aren't aware of it he is considered by canon law to be the rightful ruler of the entire world so he CAN tell us what to do.
He's also applauded the lesbian author of a children's book about alternative family arrangements, so you should like him for that too. He MAY say something more directly in favor of gay marriage. Wait and see.
All the lies of the RCC don't really matter to today's predominant mindset. You've got to believe in something yourself for them to matter.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2015 4:12 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2015 2:45 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 23 of 507 (768183)
09-09-2015 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by NoNukes
09-08-2015 6:09 PM


NoFaith writes:
Is an abandoned doctrine really any kind of indictment?
Yes, of course. It's an indictment of the original preposterous doctrine, that's why it's abandonned.
Do we think less of Southern Baptists because they no longer claim that slavery has Biblical support? I certainly don't.
This isn't about individual believers it's about the religious leaders and their institutions who tell the individuals what to believe and what not to believe - mostly I believe for their own purposes. It's an example of a political organisation adapting its strategy in order to keep its influence and membership.
Do we think less of Southern Baptists because they no longer claim that slavery has Biblical support? I certainly don't.
The people who make up these absurdities, claim to do it on behalf of god and the members are often threatened with excommunication and everlasting damnation if the don't comply. You can't just shrug it off as though they're religious fripperies that never really mattered. The family whose baby died before the priest could baptise it was told that their baby could never get to heaven, the women who aborted a child was damned forever. There were umpteen ways of getting on the wrong side of god and almost as many of buying your way back into his favour - all done, of course, through you friendly priest.
Besides, haven't you already made your decision regarding what you believe?
I have, as they say, seen the light - religions have no clothes on and it needs to be pointed out from time to time. Like others here, I also accept evolution but that doesn't stop me - and others - continuing to discuss it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NoNukes, posted 09-08-2015 6:09 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 09-09-2015 3:44 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 24 of 507 (768184)
09-09-2015 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by NoNukes
09-08-2015 6:09 PM


Double post deleted
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NoNukes, posted 09-08-2015 6:09 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 25 of 507 (768185)
09-09-2015 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
09-08-2015 11:14 PM


Faith writes:
Has this ever happened? Can you name even one religion that has actually disappeared because it is out of touch with current opinion
There are hundreds of dead gods and belief systems. Religions come and go. Your brand of fundamentalism is totally out of touch with reality and has been dying since the enlightenment. Here in the UK church attendance has plumeted. Christianity in Europe is mostly now cultural with individuals picking the bits they like or abandoning it altogether.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 09-08-2015 11:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 09-09-2015 5:18 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 26 of 507 (768186)
09-09-2015 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by MrHambre
09-08-2015 10:47 PM


Re: Blessed are the Magnanimous
Mr H writes:
I agree. Believers can't win here: if they stick to their obsolete dogma, we accuse them of barbarism. But if they jettison any of their dogma and admit that contemporary believers aren't obliged to think that way, we accuse them of hypocrisy.
That should tell us something shouldn't it? Many things actually - the main one being that they invented the entire shebang using the power structures and mores of the time and the only way they can hang on to any semblance of credibility in modern civilisations is to dump the more obvious nonsenses as society becomes more educated and less superstitious.
It's unclear what we think religious people should be allowed to do, short of abandoning their made-up beliefs and thinking exactly the way we do.
Which is, of course, the answer.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by MrHambre, posted 09-08-2015 10:47 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by MrHambre, posted 09-09-2015 7:02 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 27 of 507 (768187)
09-09-2015 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
09-08-2015 9:44 AM


Faith writes:
Bible-based Protestant Christianity is at least consistent in sticking to what the Bible says.
When was the last time you executed an adulterer?
10If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. 11If there is a man who lies with his father's wife, he has uncovered his father's nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 09-08-2015 9:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 09-09-2015 5:06 AM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 507 (768188)
09-09-2015 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tangle
09-09-2015 2:32 AM


Tangle writes:
NoFaith writes:
Lol!
Yes, of course. It's an indictment of the original preposterous doctrine, that's why it's abandonned.
Yeah, but who cares? The doctrine under indictment has abandoned.
We abandon scientific ideas that turn out to be wrong, but that's no indictment of science as a whole, and it certainly s no indictment of the state of science after abandoning an old idea that seemed to work. The failure of Newton's theory of gravitation is no indictment of science or of Newton, for that matter.
The plumb pudding model of the atom was abandoned for a Bohr model which was itself abandoned for a quantum mechanical model. Nobody thinks the less of physics because of that progression.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2015 2:32 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2015 4:08 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 29 of 507 (768189)
09-09-2015 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by NoNukes
09-09-2015 3:44 AM


NoNukes writes:
Yeah, but who cares? The doctrine under indictment has abandoned.
Anybody who cares about the veracity of their beliefs should care when God's representative on earth tells them that god's previous representative on earth was wrong about what god wants.
It questions the entire belief edifice.
We abandon scientific ideas that turn out to be wrong, but that's no indictment of science as a whole, and it certainly s no indictment of the state of science after abandoning an old idea that seemed to work. The failure of Newton's theory of gravitation is no indictment of science or of Newton, for that matter.
You're not comparing religious beliefs with science? Seriously?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 09-09-2015 3:44 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by NoNukes, posted 09-09-2015 4:36 AM Tangle has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 30 of 507 (768190)
09-09-2015 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tangle
09-09-2015 4:08 AM


Anybody who cares about the veracity of their beliefs should care when God's representative on earth tells them that god's previous representative on earth was wrong about what god wants.
Really? You find some surprise that people accept that the Pope is not perfect even with respect to knowing what God wants? Do you expect that people worship the Pope? Popes change but their opinions and beliefs must not?
You're not comparing religious beliefs with science? Seriously?
Yes, the argument is serious. I want to know why for you the abandonment of the plumb pudding model as completely wrong headed is not worthy of the same ridicule as the abandonment of Limbo? Why is it reasonable not to question the entire scientific edifice when a strongly held idea is discarded.
There is nothing inherently wrong with abandoning an idea that turns out to be wrong regardless of how long it was held or how preciously it was respected. Yes, we should question why a wrong headed belief was held for so long, but the mere fact that things have changed is alone no indictment of the current state.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2015 4:08 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 09-09-2015 4:59 AM NoNukes has replied

  
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