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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 286 of 305 (774575)
12-19-2015 3:36 AM


Mother Teresa is hurtling in a reckless, but very modern PR way into sainthood. To achieve this accelerated promotion she performed a 'miracle.'

VATICAN CITY -- Pope Francis has signed off on the miracle needed to make Mother Teresa a saint, giving the tiny nun who cared for the poorest of the poor one of the Catholic Church's highest honours just two decades after her death.

The Vatican said Friday that Francis approved a decree attributing a miracle to Mother Teresa's intercession during an audience with the head of the Vatican's saint-making office on Thursday, his 79th birthday.

No date was set for the canonization, but Italian media have speculated that the ceremony will take place in the first week of September -- to coincide with the anniversary of her death and during Francis' Holy Year of Mercy.
"This is fantastic news. We are very happy," said Sunita Kumar, a spokeswoman for the Missionaries of Charity in the eastern city of Kolkata (earlier called Calcutta), where Mother Teresa lived and worked.

The miracle responsible for Mother Teresa's canonization concerned the inexplicable cure of a Brazilian man suffering from a viral brain infection that resulted in multiple abscesses. By Dec. 9, 2008, he was in a coma and dying, suffering from an accumulation of fluid around the brain.

The Rev. Brian Kolodiejchuk, the postulator spearheading Mother Teresa's canonization case, said in a statement Friday that some 30 minutes after the man was due to undergo surgery that never took place, he sat up, awake and without pain, and was a day later declared to be symptom-free.

The Vatican later attributed the cure to the fervent prayers to Mother Teresa's intercession by the man's wife, who precisely at the time of his scheduled surgery was at her parish church, praying alongside her pastor.

Nice to see such a direct causal link between action and outcome. I find it embarrassing that grown-ups still talk like this, it sounds mediaeval. The first 'miracle' was actually denied by its recipient - he said he was cured by his medication. Funny that.

But Mother Teresas first miracle has officially been recognized for more than a decade. In 1998, one year after her death, her intercession reportedly cured an Indian woman of a stomach tumor.

TIME reported the story of Monica Besra and her tumor in 2001. There was no way any doctor would have operated on me at that hour, Besra told TIME of writhing in pain in a home that was run by Mother Teresas Missionaries of Charity on Sept. 5, 1998. So the nuns just started praying and kept a Mother Teresa medallion on my stomach. The pain subsided, and the tumor vanished.

As Episcopal Bishop Salvatore Lobo explained at the time, Besras recovery met the requirements to be declared a miracle: It is organic, permanent, immediate and intercessionary in nature.

Though Besras husband would later say that he believed that medicine had cured his wife, not divine intervention, Mother Teresas first miracle was officially recognized by the Vatican and counted toward her beatification in 2003.

This is the latest 'miracle'

Vatican City (AsiaNews) - The following is the official statement of the postulator of the cause of canonization of Mother Teresa, Fr. Brian Kolodiejchuk, MC, presenting the miracle that led to Pope Francis decision to proclaim her a saint.

On 17 December 2015, Pope Francis approved the promulgation of the decree recognizing a miracle attributed to the intercession of Blessed Teresa of Kolkata. The case submitted by the Postulation of her Cause of Canonization concerns the miraculous healing that took place in 2008 in Santos, Brazil. The case involves a man having a viral brain infection that resulted in multiple abscesses with triventricular hydrocephalus.

The various treatments undertaken were not effective, and thus his condition continuously worsened. By 9 December 2008 the patient was in an acute clinical state: obstructive hydrocephalus; he was in a coma and dying. It was decided to proceed with emergency surgery. At 18:10 the patient was taken to the operating room, but the Anesthesiologist could not perform the tracheal intubation for anesthesia.

Meanwhile, from March 2008, the patient's wife continuously sought the intercession of Blessed Mother Teresa for her husband. To her own prayers of intercession were joined those of her relatives, friends, and the parish priest, all of whom were praying for a miraculous cure through the intercession of Mother Teresa.

On this same day, 9 December 2008, when the patient entered into serious crisis and had to be taken for an emergency operation, intensified prayers were addressed to Blessed Teresa for his recovery. Precisely between the hours of 18.10 and 18.40 the patient's wife went to her parish church, and along with the pastor, turned to Blessed Teresa begging with greater determination the cure of her dying husband.

At 18.40 the neurosurgeon returned to the operating room and found the patient inexplicably awake and without pain. The patient asked the doctor, "what I am doing here?" The next morning, December 10, 2008, when examined at 7.40 the patient was fully awake and without any headache; he was asymptomatic with normal cognition.

The patient, now completely healed, resumed his work as a mechanical engineer without any particular limitation. In addition, it should be emphasized that despite the tests that showed a state of sterility due to the intense and prolonged immunosuppression and antibiotics, the couple have two healthy children born in 2009 and 2012.

On 10 September of this year, the medical commission voted unanimously that the cure is inexplicable in the light of present-day medical knowledge. On 8 October the theological commission also voted unanimously that there was a perfect connection of cause and effect between the invocation of Mother Teresa and the scientifically inexplicable healing. On 15 December the case received the final approval of the congress of Cardinals and Bishops of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints meeting in ordinary session.

The date of the canonization will be officially announced in the next Consistory of Cardinals.

Fr. Brian Kolodiejchuk, MC

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Dredge, posted 09-28-2017 6:32 AM Tangle has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 582
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 287 of 305 (820838)
09-28-2017 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
09-08-2015 3:47 AM


quote:
this week he (Pope Francis) says that divorced Catholics can remarry; previously impossible without a papal annulment

No, I don't think that's correct. My understanding is, this Pope wants to, but so far he's been unsuccessful due to opposition from most of the other bishops.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2015 3:47 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Tangle, posted 09-28-2017 8:50 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 582
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 288 of 305 (820839)
09-28-2017 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by kbertsche
09-08-2015 12:23 PM



What have they changed?
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 582
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 289 of 305 (820843)
09-28-2017 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Tangle
12-19-2015 3:36 AM


If you don't believe ANY miracles are possible, then naturally you are going to deny any claimed by the Catholic Church.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Tangle, posted 12-19-2015 3:36 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Tangle, posted 09-28-2017 8:01 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 09-28-2017 12:04 PM Dredge has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 290 of 305 (820854)
09-28-2017 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Dredge
09-28-2017 6:32 AM


Dredge writes:

If you don't believe ANY miracles are possible, then naturally you are going to deny any claimed by the Catholic Church.

Naturally. But what is your point?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Dredge, posted 09-28-2017 6:32 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 291 of 305 (820855)
09-28-2017 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Dredge
09-28-2017 6:08 AM


Dredge writes:

No, I don't think that's correct. My understanding is, this Pope wants but so far he's been unsuccessful due to opposition from most of the other bishops.

Well you tell me, can they or can't they? it's a binary thing. I just spent ten minutes looking and got caught in the Alice in Wonderland world of Catholic 'law'. It's utterly hilarious, proper angels on pin head stuff.

Because it's all totally fabricated anyone can say anything they like. I love this:

quote:
The cardinal pointed to paragraph 301 of Amoris laetitia, which reads: it is can no longer simply be said that all those in any irregular situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace.

By referring to any irregular situation, the exhortation, in his opinion, intends to refer to all those who are married only civilly or only living in a de facto union or are bound by a previous canonical marriage, the cardinal said.


This cardinal is responsible for interpreting Alice Law. I'm tempted to say that you couldn't make it up but clearly they can. These pompous idiots are deciding whether married people are in a state of mortal sin - ie going straight to hell - by being married. The chutzpah of it. Simply hilarious.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Dredge, posted 09-28-2017 6:08 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 292 of 305 (820877)
09-28-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Dredge
09-28-2017 6:32 AM


Dredge writes:

If you don't believe ANY miracles are possible, then naturally you are going to deny any claimed by the Catholic Church.


You have that backwards. We don't believe miracles are possible because none of them has ever been substantiated.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Dredge, posted 09-28-2017 6:32 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Dredge, posted 09-29-2017 2:09 AM ringo has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 582
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 293 of 305 (820923)
09-29-2017 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by ringo
09-28-2017 12:04 PM


The Catholic Church initially approaches claims of miracles with skepticism, as anyone should. Miracles aren't declared as authenitic until every other possible explanation has been considered and thoroughly investigated by professional experts (many of whom are not Catholics or even religious - they are often atheists). But if you refuse point blank to believe in miracles, no amount of evidence will ever be enough.

I myself have experienced two miracles, but if you are miracle-phobic, you will quickly dismiss them as delusion and nonsense.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 09-28-2017 12:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by ringo, posted 09-29-2017 11:43 AM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 302 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2017 9:58 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 582
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 294 of 305 (820924)
09-29-2017 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
09-08-2015 3:47 AM


quote:
Last week he said that priests could forgive those who have had abortions - previously impossible.

If a woman (or an accomplice) confesses an abortion, an ordinary priest is not allowed to grant absolution, but has to ask the local bishop for permission as a means of emphasizing the evil of such sins. Reserved sins carry automatic excommunication, which means that the person is banned from all Catholic sacraments, including the sacrament of penance (confession).
Church law says that when a woman has an abortion she and all those who aided her, including doctors, nurses and spouses, are automatically excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

However in some countries, including the United States and Great Britain, for quite some time now the bishops of these countries, because of the great number of abortions, have given all priests permission to lift the excommunication immediately. So what the Holy Father has done, is extend this to all priests around the world one year which he has designated as a year of mercy.

quote:
Many years ago it stopped being a 'sin' to eat meat on friday and it became a matter of 'conscience' whether a Catholic used birth control - but only in the educated West of course.

As far as I know, it was never a sin for a Catholic to eat meat on Friday - it was a "discipline" that the Church encouraged the faithful to follow, but wasn't a law.

As far as I know, it is a grave sin for any Catholic anywhere to use contraception.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2015 3:47 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2017 10:06 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 295 of 305 (820951)
09-29-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by Dredge
09-29-2017 2:09 AM


Dredge writes:

Miracles aren't declared as authenitic until every other possible explanation has been considered and thoroughly investigated by professional experts (many of whom are not Catholics or even religious - they are often atheists).


It doesn't much matter who is doing the investigating. The rules of what constitutes a genuine miracle are still made up by the Catholic Church, aren't they? If you tell me to give you a number between 1 and 10, I can't say 49, can I?, even if it's the right answer.

Dredge writes:

But if you refuse point blank to believe in miracles, no amount of evidence will ever be enough.


I don't refuse to believe in miracles. I don't refuse to believe in Bigfoot or unicorns or leprechauns either.

Do you "refuse" to believe in unicorns?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Dredge, posted 09-29-2017 2:09 AM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 09-29-2017 1:44 PM ringo has responded
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 10-01-2017 1:01 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 296 of 305 (820969)
09-29-2017 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by ringo
09-29-2017 11:43 AM


Refusing To Believe..For The Moment
These types of arguments frustrate me. They are always the same...Im starting t react the same way Faith does....chalk that up to a psychology study

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by ringo, posted 09-29-2017 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 297 of 305 (821013)
09-30-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
09-29-2017 1:44 PM


Re: Refusing To Believe..For The Moment
Phat writes:

These types of arguments frustrate me.


It can be frustrating to find out that you're wrong. You can try to end the frustration by nailing down your Caps Lock key. Or you can just stop being wrong.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 09-29-2017 1:44 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9891
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 298 of 305 (821027)
10-01-2017 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by ringo
09-29-2017 11:43 AM


Evidence versus Subjective experience
ringo writes:

I don't refuse to believe in Bigfoot or unicorns or leprechauns either.

You have never had a reason to believe in them unless and until you believe you have sensed them. You can't know what I have sensed. Objectively I cant prove or show you anything, but belief is strongly subjective. Not "wrong". Evidence can't nail down everything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by ringo, posted 09-29-2017 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 10-01-2017 2:46 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 300 by Capt Stormfield, posted 10-01-2017 3:14 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13726
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 299 of 305 (821035)
10-01-2017 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
10-01-2017 1:01 AM


Re: Evidence versus Subjective experience
Phat writes:

You can't know what I have sensed.


If only you can sense it and many of us can't, that suggests that what you're sensing isn't real - i.e. it isn't something outside your head.

Phat writes:

... belief is strongly subjective. Not "wrong".


It certainly can be wrong. If you believe in a young earth, you're wrong. If you believe in Noah's Flood, you're wrong.

If you believe in Bigfoot or unicorns or leprechauns, you might not be wrong - but you shouldn't act as if they were real. If the leprechaun tells you to burn things, you shouldn't do it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 10-01-2017 1:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 251
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 300 of 305 (821037)
10-01-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
10-01-2017 1:01 AM


Re: Evidence versus Subjective experience
Phat writes:

You have never had a reason to believe in them unless and until you believe you have sensed them.

And yet, if you go out with a Sasquatch hunter, he will sense Sasquatches left and right. Hear them, smell them, catch fleeting glimpses of them. And UFO believers will see UFOs.

And religious believers will sense the presence of the Lord.

It seems to be a matter of training and expectation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 10-01-2017 1:01 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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