Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8806 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-18-2017 5:35 AM
336 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), PaulK, Tangle (3 members, 333 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,537 Year: 29,143/21,208 Month: 1,209/1,847 Week: 132/452 Day: 6/126 Hour: 0/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
17181920
21
22Next
Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
Phat
Member
Posts: 10254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 301 of 321 (821038)
10-01-2017 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Capt Stormfield
10-01-2017 3:14 PM


Re: Evidence versus Subjective experience
Yes, I cannot deny that. Belief is partially a cultural meme, but it also stems in some cases from individual experience. The Sasquatch hunter must surely be aware that he has not caught any yet. Why he would want to keep hunting for something never seen is puzzling. Perhaps he has a Sasquatch Hunters support group.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Capt Stormfield, posted 10-01-2017 3:14 PM Capt Stormfield has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 302 of 321 (821148)
10-03-2017 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by Dredge
09-29-2017 2:09 AM


Dredge writes:

But if you refuse point blank to believe in miracles, no amount of evidence will ever be enough.

What's belief got to do with it? Miracles are supernatural interventions in our natural world. If they existed we'd have so much evidence for them that belief would not be a factor.

I don't believe in dousing because it doesn't work. I don't believe in miracles because there aren't any. Show me a miracle and I'll accept it as fact, show me a douser that can detect water in controlled conditions and I'll accept it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Dredge, posted 09-29-2017 2:09 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 303 of 321 (821149)
10-03-2017 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Dredge
09-29-2017 2:27 AM


Dredge writes:

If a woman (or an accomplice) confesses an abortion, an ordinary priest is not allowed to grant absolution, but has to ask the local bishop for permission as a means of emphasizing the evil of such sins.

Remember that the title of this thread is 'Catholics are making it up?' Well thanks for a new example.

As far as I know, it is a grave sin for any Catholic anywhere to use contraception.

And here's another one. It was deemed not to be a sin if your conscience allows it in the early 60s or so. A really nice cop out which slowed down the massive haemorrhage of good Christian parents leaving the Catholic faith for a more user-friendly one.

So, of course, virtually every Catholic in modern Western democracies practices contraception and priests don't bother anybody anymore. When was the last time you saw a family of ten kids?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Dredge, posted 09-29-2017 2:27 AM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by 1.61803, posted 10-11-2017 10:43 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 304 of 321 (821462)
10-08-2017 8:01 AM


By complete chance, today I went to Santiago de Compostela in Northern Spain as a tourist. It's a UNESCO world heritage site and also the third most important site of pilgrimage for the Catholic church being the alleged resting place for St James the disciple's body after he was decapitated. You can look at the casket he's apparently in in the crypt - after paying of course.

Well, talk about making stuff up. The entire site is one long series of myths and legends woven into centuries of money making religious ventures, gouging pilgrims from all over the world for privileges and indulgences. Pilgrimages mean money for a town but to get to be a place of pilgrimage you need religious stories. The story of the miraculous finding of the body of St James involves deceit, continental travel, miraculous starlight and guidance by wild animals. The town became wealthy - there are 80 Catholic churches within the one square kilometre.

If you can get yourself buried in the Cathedral you automatically go to heaven. If you make a pilgrimage to the Cathedral when St Jame's birthday - or was it his deathday? - falls on a Sunday you automatically get to heaven. (But you have to have walked over 100km, for this to work.)

The symbol of Santiago is the scollop shell but to get one you could only buy it from the church - they had a nationwide monopoly. The fantasies just go on and on .... and people still believe them.

Some nice buildings though.

According to a tradition that can be traced back at least to the 12th century, when it was recorded in the Codex Calixtinus, Saint James decided to return to the Holy Land after preaching in Galicia. There he was beheaded, but his disciples managed to get his body to Jaffa, where they found a marvelous stone ship which miraculously conducted them and the apostle's body to Iria Flavia, back in Galicia. There, the disciples asked the local pagan queen Loba ('She-wolf') for permission to bury the body; she, annoyed, decided to deceive them, sending them to pick a pair of oxen she allegedly had by the Pico Sacro, a local sacred mountain where a dragon dwelt, hoping that the dragon would kill the Christians, but as soon as the beast attacked the disciples, at the sight of the cross, the dragon exploded. Then the disciples marched to collect the oxen, which were actually wild bulls which the queen used to punish her enemies; but again, at the sight of the Christian's cross, the bulls calmed down, and after being subjected to a yoke they carried the apostle's body to the place where now Compostela is. The legend was again referred with minor changes by the Czech traveller Jaroslav Lev of Romitl, in the 15th century.[18]

The relics were said to have been later rediscovered in the 9th century by a hermit named Pelagius, who after observing strange lights in a local forest went for help after the local bishop, Theodemar of Iria, in the west of Galicia. The legend affirms that Theodemar was then guided to the spot by a star, drawing upon a familiar myth-element, hence "Compostela" was given an etymology as a corruption of Campus Stellae, "Field of Stars."

In the 15th century, the red banner which guided the Galician armies to battle, was still preserved in the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela, in the centre Saint James riding a white horse and wearing a white cloak, sword in hand:[19] The legend of the miraculous armed intervention of Saint James, disguised as a white knight to help the Christians when battling the Muslims, was a recurrent myth during the High Middle Ages.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2732
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 305 of 321 (821706)
10-11-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Tangle
10-03-2017 10:06 AM


Tangle writes:

When was the last time you saw a family of ten kids?

"Ever-REEEeeeY sper-Rummm is Sacred!! Ever-reeey Sper-rumm is
great!"

If
A Sper-Ruumm is waisted
God gets quite irate!!"

Edited by 1.61803, : cuz


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2017 10:06 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 306 of 321 (823500)
11-11-2017 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
09-08-2015 8:37 AM


DUPLICATE.
LLLL

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 09-08-2015 8:37 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 307 of 321 (823501)
11-11-2017 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
09-08-2015 8:37 AM


Catholics are honest on marriage issues.
First of all, Catholics actually try to be honest about what the scripture says about divorce, as prominent Protestant scholars will admit.

quote:

The enforced celibacy of priests is not in scripture or the early church either. In fact if you're going to say Peter was the first Pope you have to ignore the fact that scripture clearly says he was married.

But Priests aren't in the New Testament anyway, and Catholics make the honest point that it is "tradition" that brought the New Testament "Bible" that all European Christians have today.

The celibacy is part of rules that the early Church (by and large) instituted, and they are honest about that.

And Paul preferred celibacy btw.

quote:

1 Corinthians 7

25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.
....

31...this world passeth away.

32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend


Then.

quote:

Bible-based Protestant Christianity is at least consistent in sticking to what the Bible says. There may be disagreements about what it says on minor points but there isn't any of this making things up and changing doctrines to suit the times.

I don't see hardly any evidence for what you say.

Paul knew that eating meat was extremely offensive to a massive chunk of the world, and was IMO a vegetarian (Jerome rejected the Apocrypha and otherwise preferred the "Bible" you hold Faith, and from it he felt Paul was a vegetarian)

quote:

1 Corinthians 8

12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.


quote:

Although early Christian vegetarianism appears to have been downplayed in favor of more "modern" Christian culture, the practice of vegetarianism appears to have been very widespread in early Christianity, both in the leadership and among the laity. Origen's work Contra Celsum quotes Celsus commenting vegetarian practices among Christians he had contact with.[26] Although not vegetarian himself and vehemently against the idea that Christians must be vegetarians, Augustine nevertheless wrote that those Christians who "abstain both from flesh and from wine" are "without number".[27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism


Here was what the 2nd century pagan Celsus said of Christians

quote:

If in obedience to the traditions of their fathers they abstain from such victims, they must also abstain from all animal food, in accordance with the opinions of Pythagoras, who thus showed his respect for the soul and its bodily organs.

Jerome had contact with Jewish Christians (WHO STILL EXISTED) and he knew they were vegetarian. He even read their Gospel of Matthew.

quote:

Jerome, Lives of Illustrious Men, Ch.3

Matthew also called Levi, apostle and aforetimes publican, composed a gospel of Christ at first published in Judea in Hebrew for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed, but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Caesarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having the volume described to me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, a city of Syria, who use it. In this it is to be noted that wherever the Evangelist, whether on his own account or in the person of our Lord the Savior quotes the testimony of the Old Testament he does not follow the authority of the translators of the Septuagint but the Hebrew. Wherefore these two forms exist Out of Egypt have I called my son, and for he shall be called a Nazarene.


quote:

Jerome, On Matt. 12:13 (398 AD)
In the Gospel which the Nazarenes and Ebionites use (which I have lately translated into Greek from the Hebrew, and which is called by many (or most) people the original of Matthew), this man who had the withered hand is described as a mason, who prays for help in such words as this: I was a mason seeking a livelihood with my hands. I pray thee, Jesus, to restore me mine health, that I may not beg meanly for my food.


Hegesippius (of the 2nd century) was the first to mention the Gospel of the Nazarenes and he said Matthew and James were vegetarians.

Every Jewish Christian sect that I know of was vegetarian.

Protestants don't care one bit about early Christianity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 09-08-2015 8:37 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Faith, posted 11-11-2017 4:26 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26790
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 308 of 321 (823517)
11-11-2017 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by LamarkNewAge
11-11-2017 12:28 AM


Re: Catholics are honest on marriage issues.
It is true that the RCC has a truer view of marriage and divorce than at least some Protestants do. I've had a problem with this for years. I also have a problem with the rejection of the clear teaching that women should cover our heads in Church, and the invention of reasons that contradict what Paul himself taught on that subject.

While voluntary celibacy is fine, enforcing it for all clergy is evil and the cause of all kinds of sexual sins in the RCC down the centuries, Popes and priests having many children by mistresses, and now all the homosexual crimes against children, and since celibacy was also required of monks and nuns sexual sins were common in those supposed bastions of holiness too.

As Paul says, not everyone can live that way, and marriage shouldn't be a barrier to serving the church. Scripture clearly says that elders, which include all ministers of the Church, should be the husband of one wife...

In the circumstances of the early church especially during the persecutions there were advantages to not being encumbered with a spouse, but as Paul said, this is not possible for some and "the marriage bed is not defiled."

There is also nothing wrong with choosing to be a vegetarian for spiritual reasons that I know of, but there is everything wrong with forcing everybody to give up meat even on one particular day of the week, and as scripture says "forbidding to marry" and forbidding to eat meat" are a mark of heresy. Scripture itself tells us that meat is to be received with thanks. It goes back to Job whom God told to eat meat. Then the levitical priests had the meat given for sacrifice as their food too. Whatever other views there may have been in support of vegetarianism, scripture is clear that meat is acceptable.

I do, however, agree, again, that Protestants need to clean up our act too, and I shouldn't have said we differ only on minor points since some of these aren't exactly minor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-11-2017 12:28 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 309 of 321 (823520)
11-11-2017 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
09-08-2015 3:47 AM


Question: aren't all religions making it up?
What's special about catholics ... aren't all religions making it up?

Is it somehow better if someone else made it up and then you are told to believe it?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2015 3:47 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2017 6:28 PM RAZD has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 310 of 321 (823524)
11-11-2017 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by RAZD
11-11-2017 4:52 PM


Re: Question: aren't all religions making it up?
RAZD writes:

What's special about catholics

Apart from them being the largest religious organisation on the planet?

Is it somehow better if someone else made it up and then you are told to believe it?

I've read this a few times but still don't understand the question.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by RAZD, posted 11-11-2017 4:52 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2017 7:14 AM Tangle has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 311 of 321 (823538)
11-12-2017 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Tangle
11-11-2017 6:28 PM


Re: Question: aren't all religions making it up?
Is it somehow better if someone else made it up and then you are told to believe it?

I've read this a few times but still don't understand the question.

Each religion organization has text material that has stories someone else made up that they tell the followers to believe.

Does that make the stories better? Does it make them less made up?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Tangle, posted 11-11-2017 6:28 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2017 8:05 AM RAZD has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 312 of 321 (823539)
11-12-2017 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by RAZD
11-12-2017 7:14 AM


Re: Question: aren't all religions making it up?
RAZD writes:

Each religion organization has text material that has stories someone else made up that they tell the followers to believe.

Does that make the stories better? Does it make them less made up?

Sure, all religions and their books and rituals are made up. I'm just pointing out the ludicrousness of the Catholic version.

Catholic 'traditions' are dafter and more convoluted than most and as a result are having to change to prevent further loss of followers. The fact that a belief needs to change this radically is evidence of how nonsensical it all is.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2017 7:14 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Phat, posted 11-12-2017 1:27 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 316 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2017 2:08 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 313 of 321 (823547)
11-12-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Tangle
11-12-2017 8:05 AM


Re: Question: aren't all religions making it up?
Tangle writes:

Sure, all religions and their books and rituals are made up. I'm just pointing out the ludicrousness of the Catholic version.

Its turtles all the way down....to Jesus. Human nature makes stuff up. Ever read the National Enquirer?

Trump brought up the term fake news and many of his followers believe it. And to be fair, you have a point in that we (humans) tend to defend the religion of our parents and culture. I would argue, however, that the origin of most major belief systems was not willfully made up. Whether or not the Creator of all seen and unseen is made up or not can not be proven one way or another. I do think that you can willfully imagine whether or not you want Him to be real, however.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Tangle, posted 11-12-2017 8:05 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2017 1:53 PM Phat has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 314 of 321 (823552)
11-12-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Phat
11-12-2017 1:27 PM


is communication possible
Trump brought up the term fake news and many of his followers believe it. And to be fair, you have a point in that we (humans) tend to defend the religion of our parents and culture. I would argue, however, that the origin of most major belief systems was not willfully made up. Whether or not the Creator of all seen and unseen is made up or not can not be proven one way or another. I do think that you can willfully imagine whether or not you want Him to be real, however.

I believe people can have spiritual experiences, however I also believe that any god/s that created a universe would be so unfathomably complex and so removed from our minuscule and ephemeral existence that any form of real communication would be impossible. At best poorly understood tid-bits, that are as bedded in the persons world-view as they are any piece of information for them will at best be poorly grasped, and only scantily understood through their personal world-view filter. Like communication between people that speak different languages, but raised to an incomprehensible power. One could not help but make up most of what they could then communicate to anyone else.

In this vein any spiritual experience via intense prayer or meditation is mostly seen by how it reinforces your world-view -- what you have been taught and trained and told to see.

Thus you see Jesus, a muslim sees Allah, a buddhist sees Buddha, a hindu sees Shiva, etc. It's the interpretation by the world-view.

And this then reinforces your belief in your religion.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Phat, posted 11-12-2017 1:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Phat, posted 11-12-2017 2:01 PM RAZD has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 315 of 321 (823554)
11-12-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by RAZD
11-12-2017 1:53 PM


Re: is communication possible
What does a Zen Deist see?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2017 1:53 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2017 2:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
17181920
21
22Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017