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Author Topic:   Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based?
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 70 of 511 (771580)
10-27-2015 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ICANT
10-26-2015 11:47 PM


Re: God
ICANT writes:
Before the universe there would have been an absence of anything. No space, time, matter, energy....
No God.
ICANT writes:
Now whatever caused the universe to have a beginning to exist from an absence of anything would be a supernatural power.
You're arbitrarily defining something "outside" the universe as "God". That's not a reason to think that a God exists. It's just a misunderstanding of what the universe is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by ICANT, posted 10-26-2015 11:47 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 10-27-2015 7:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 511 (771582)
10-27-2015 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Raphael
10-27-2015 12:12 PM


Re: A Modern Ressurection
Raphael writes:
Then, your neighbor also confirmed that they have seen your cat, then your best friend.
What if your neighbour said that a complete stranger had also seen your cat - but he couldn't show any evidence that that stranger ever existed? Because that's more like what we have with the Bible - a lot of second-hand, hearsay accounts with no real witnesses to cross-examine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Raphael, posted 10-27-2015 12:12 PM Raphael has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 115 of 511 (771660)
10-28-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
10-27-2015 7:48 PM


Re: God
ICANT writes:
I don't care if you call the supernatural power God or Jimbo, there had to be a supernatural power to cause the universe to begin to exist.
No. There didn't. That speculation doesn't answer anything.
ICANT writes:
The pure energy that became the mass of the universe had to come from somewhere. It can not produce it's self.
The same applies to any "supernatural power" that might have created it. By your reasoning, your creator requires a creator and that creator requires its own creator and so on, ad infinitum. It's a useless concept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 10-27-2015 7:48 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ICANT, posted 10-28-2015 4:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 127 of 511 (771755)
10-29-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by ICANT
10-28-2015 4:29 PM


Re: God
ICANT writes:
OK you ruled out there being a supernatural power, supplying the energy to supply the energy and mass to produce the universe.
I didn't rule it out. You did, when you said, "The pure energy that became the mass of the universe had to come from somewhere. It can not produce it's self." You said that God can not produce Himself.
ICANT writes:
I believe and have stated that the supernatural power has to be outside of the universe and would be required to be eternal.
That's a completely meaningless statement.
ICANT writes:
Only if that entity was inside the universe would it be subject to the laws of the universe. But that entity had to establish the rules the universe is subject too.
And by the some logic, there would have to be something outside that entity to establish the rules that that entity is subject to. It's turtles all the way down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ICANT, posted 10-28-2015 4:29 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ICANT, posted 10-29-2015 5:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 146 of 511 (771824)
10-30-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by ICANT
10-29-2015 5:36 PM


Re: God
ICANT writes:
If you are going to quote me get your quote right.
I did. I copy-pasted it directly from Message 82.
ICANT writes:
I did not say any thing about the supernatural power not being able to produce the supernatural power.
I know you didn't mention that - because it's the fatal flaw in your fairy tale.
ICANT writes:
The supernatural power would have to be an eternal entity with no beginning and no end.
That's made up, as per the topic. It has no basis in reality.
ICANT writes:
Remember the law energy and mass can not be created.
That law began at the beginning - i.e. at the Big bang. It says nothing about how the Big Bang could or could not happen.
ICANT writes:
I suppose you have a better explanation of how the energy and mass could begin to exist from non existence.
When there is no explanation (yet), the scientific approach is to say, "There is no explanation, yet." The religious approach is to make up a fictional explanation.
ICANT writes:
You could prove me wrong by presenting a mechanism whereby the universe could begin to exist out of non existence.
You could prove me wrong by presenting a mechanism whereby a "God" could exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ICANT, posted 10-29-2015 5:36 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 153 of 511 (771876)
10-31-2015 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
10-31-2015 10:17 AM


Faith writes:
... if they can't be regarded as evidence in the Faith forums....
Faith does not depend on evidence. Yet people who claim to have faith are constantly trying to come up with evidence for their faith. Seems like weak faith to me. You should just admit that there is no evidence for the resurrection and have faith that it happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 10-31-2015 10:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 10-31-2015 1:23 PM ringo has replied
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 11-01-2015 1:26 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 156 of 511 (771882)
10-31-2015 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Faith
10-31-2015 1:23 PM


Faith writes:
CHRISTIAN faith DOES depend on evidence and most of us would say it does and we are not just "trying to come up with evidence," we wouldn't believe what we believe without it.
Then it isn't faith; it's pseudoscience.
Faith writes:
Have you read anything or much of C.S. Lewis? He writes about how as a scholar in mythologies he knows the sound or style of myth and the sound or style of truth and the Bible has the sound and style of truth.
Does he recognize a talking snake as myth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 10-31-2015 1:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 10-31-2015 1:47 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 187 of 511 (771963)
11-01-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
11-01-2015 1:26 AM


Re: Depends which words you use
Phat writes:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
The wording is unfortunate. Hebrews 11:1 is not using the word "evidence" the way we use it. A better translation would be, "Faith is a substitute for evidence when you don't have any evidence."
Edited by ringo, : Added a word for clarification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 11-01-2015 1:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 188 of 511 (771964)
11-01-2015 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Faith
10-31-2015 1:47 PM


Faith writes:
*Groan*
So, did C.S. Lewis take the talking snake literally or not? If you're going to cite him as an authority, you should at least know whether or not he agrees with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 10-31-2015 1:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 232 of 511 (772069)
11-04-2015 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by ICANT
11-03-2015 5:52 PM


Re: ICANT,
ICANT writes:
Straggler writes:
Firstly - How do you know that this law applies prior to T=0?
Because it applies after T=0.
By that logic, the US Constitution applied before it was written because it applied after it was written.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by ICANT, posted 11-03-2015 5:52 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 270 of 511 (772228)
11-10-2015 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by kbertsche
11-09-2015 3:25 PM


Re: ICANT,
kbertsche writes:
When Stephen Hawking claims that the law of gravity can create a universe from nothing, he is ascribing prescriptive, causative power to natural law.
The position is that gravity can create a universe and the Law of Gravity describes how it does it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by kbertsche, posted 11-09-2015 3:25 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Admin, posted 11-10-2015 11:52 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 326 of 511 (772455)
11-14-2015 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Raphael
11-13-2015 3:30 PM


Re: Raphael's many errors Part 3
Raphael writes:
If there were a God, and that God was indeed Jesus, wouldn't the things he has to say about where we ought to find meaning, self-worth, and fulfillment be even better than what we think will give us those things?
That's kind of a circular question. Maybe God/Jesus "would" know better than we do what we "should" value - but how would we know? What's the difference between "recognizing" a better way and inventing it ourselves?
It comes down to taking His word for it that His way is better. Worse, it comes down to taking the word of His self-proclaimed representatives among us.
Raphael writes:
If Jesus did resurrect, like he said he would, don't we also have to examine his claim that he was THE God?
If unicorns could fly, wouldn't we have to re-examine what we know about aerodynamics? Maybe so, but I don't see why it should be high on our agenda today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Raphael, posted 11-13-2015 3:30 PM Raphael has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 367 of 511 (772739)
11-18-2015 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Greatest I am
11-17-2015 3:39 PM


Greatest I am writes:
On the scale of good and evil, there is no broken.
If there is indeed a "scale" of good and evil, there must be some place near the center that is a bit wishy-washy, a bit iffy, depending on the circumstances. A three-legged table may be "evil" if you're trying to balance fine china on it, but surely it's still "good" enough for firewood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2015 3:39 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Greatest I am, posted 11-18-2015 2:31 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 376 of 511 (772842)
11-19-2015 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by ICANT
11-19-2015 10:39 AM


ICANT writes:
What is that source if it is not a supernatural power?
A natural power.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2015 10:39 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by ICANT, posted 11-20-2015 1:56 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 385 of 511 (772963)
11-21-2015 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by ICANT
11-20-2015 1:56 AM


ICANT writes:
And how would you propose a natural power could begin to exist in non existence?
Natural powers are the only ones that are known to exist. If a power is needed to answer a question, existing powers come miles ahead of non-existent "super" powers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by ICANT, posted 11-20-2015 1:56 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by ICANT, posted 11-24-2015 1:46 AM ringo has replied

  
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