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Author | Topic: Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
No God.
Before the universe there would have been an absence of anything. No space, time, matter, energy.... ICANT writes:
You're arbitrarily defining something "outside" the universe as "God". That's not a reason to think that a God exists. It's just a misunderstanding of what the universe is.
Now whatever caused the universe to have a beginning to exist from an absence of anything would be a supernatural power.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Raphael writes:
What if your neighbour said that a complete stranger had also seen your cat - but he couldn't show any evidence that that stranger ever existed? Because that's more like what we have with the Bible - a lot of second-hand, hearsay accounts with no real witnesses to cross-examine.
Then, your neighbor also confirmed that they have seen your cat, then your best friend.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
No. There didn't. That speculation doesn't answer anything.
I don't care if you call the supernatural power God or Jimbo, there had to be a supernatural power to cause the universe to begin to exist. ICANT writes:
The same applies to any "supernatural power" that might have created it. By your reasoning, your creator requires a creator and that creator requires its own creator and so on, ad infinitum. It's a useless concept.
The pure energy that became the mass of the universe had to come from somewhere. It can not produce it's self.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
I didn't rule it out. You did, when you said, "The pure energy that became the mass of the universe had to come from somewhere. It can not produce it's self." You said that God can not produce Himself.
OK you ruled out there being a supernatural power, supplying the energy to supply the energy and mass to produce the universe. ICANT writes:
That's a completely meaningless statement.
I believe and have stated that the supernatural power has to be outside of the universe and would be required to be eternal. ICANT writes:
And by the some logic, there would have to be something outside that entity to establish the rules that that entity is subject to. It's turtles all the way down.
Only if that entity was inside the universe would it be subject to the laws of the universe. But that entity had to establish the rules the universe is subject too.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
I did. I copy-pasted it directly from Message 82.
If you are going to quote me get your quote right. ICANT writes:
I know you didn't mention that - because it's the fatal flaw in your fairy tale.
I did not say any thing about the supernatural power not being able to produce the supernatural power. ICANT writes:
That's made up, as per the topic. It has no basis in reality.
The supernatural power would have to be an eternal entity with no beginning and no end. ICANT writes:
That law began at the beginning - i.e. at the Big bang. It says nothing about how the Big Bang could or could not happen.
Remember the law energy and mass can not be created. ICANT writes:
When there is no explanation (yet), the scientific approach is to say, "There is no explanation, yet." The religious approach is to make up a fictional explanation.
I suppose you have a better explanation of how the energy and mass could begin to exist from non existence. ICANT writes:
You could prove me wrong by presenting a mechanism whereby a "God" could exist.
You could prove me wrong by presenting a mechanism whereby the universe could begin to exist out of non existence.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Faith does not depend on evidence. Yet people who claim to have faith are constantly trying to come up with evidence for their faith. Seems like weak faith to me. You should just admit that there is no evidence for the resurrection and have faith that it happened.
... if they can't be regarded as evidence in the Faith forums....
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
Then it isn't faith; it's pseudoscience.
CHRISTIAN faith DOES depend on evidence and most of us would say it does and we are not just "trying to come up with evidence," we wouldn't believe what we believe without it. Faith writes:
Does he recognize a talking snake as myth?
Have you read anything or much of C.S. Lewis? He writes about how as a scholar in mythologies he knows the sound or style of myth and the sound or style of truth and the Bible has the sound and style of truth.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The wording is unfortunate. Hebrews 11:1 is not using the word "evidence" the way we use it. A better translation would be, "Faith is a substitute for evidence when you don't have any evidence." Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Edited by ringo, : Added a word for clarification.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
So, did C.S. Lewis take the talking snake literally or not? If you're going to cite him as an authority, you should at least know whether or not he agrees with you.
*Groan*
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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ICANT writes:
By that logic, the US Constitution applied before it was written because it applied after it was written.
Straggler writes:
Because it applies after T=0. Firstly - How do you know that this law applies prior to T=0?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
The position is that gravity can create a universe and the Law of Gravity describes how it does it.
When Stephen Hawking claims that the law of gravity can create a universe from nothing, he is ascribing prescriptive, causative power to natural law.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Raphael writes:
That's kind of a circular question. Maybe God/Jesus "would" know better than we do what we "should" value - but how would we know? What's the difference between "recognizing" a better way and inventing it ourselves? If there were a God, and that God was indeed Jesus, wouldn't the things he has to say about where we ought to find meaning, self-worth, and fulfillment be even better than what we think will give us those things? It comes down to taking His word for it that His way is better. Worse, it comes down to taking the word of His self-proclaimed representatives among us.
Raphael writes:
If unicorns could fly, wouldn't we have to re-examine what we know about aerodynamics? Maybe so, but I don't see why it should be high on our agenda today.
If Jesus did resurrect, like he said he would, don't we also have to examine his claim that he was THE God?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Greatest I am writes:
If there is indeed a "scale" of good and evil, there must be some place near the center that is a bit wishy-washy, a bit iffy, depending on the circumstances. A three-legged table may be "evil" if you're trying to balance fine china on it, but surely it's still "good" enough for firewood.
On the scale of good and evil, there is no broken.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
A natural power.
What is that source if it is not a supernatural power?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
Natural powers are the only ones that are known to exist. If a power is needed to answer a question, existing powers come miles ahead of non-existent "super" powers.
And how would you propose a natural power could begin to exist in non existence?
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