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Author Topic:   Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 511 (771604)
10-27-2015 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ICANT
10-27-2015 7:17 PM


Re: God
So yes the Big Bang theory says there was no thing at T=0. The math does not work and can tell us nothing and there is nothing else we have to tell us what was there.
No, that is not quite correct. At best the science tells us something about what existed as far back as small fractions of a second after T=0. Maybe at times just after 10-43 s. But nobody knows whether there was a thing or a nothing at T=0.
Well you are the first one that has guessed that whatever was at T=0 was that large.
I imagine that people guess all kinds of stuff.
The universe is everything you can see and all those things you can not see
And yet, according to you, there is at least one thing outside of the universe. There seems to be some inconsistency here.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ICANT, posted 10-27-2015 7:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 10-27-2015 8:14 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 511 (771801)
10-30-2015 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by ICANT
10-27-2015 8:14 PM


Re: God
So what part of my statement is not correct?
The part where you claim that science describes the universe at T=0. So the statement you give below would be an example of something you said which is not correct.
So yes the Big Bang theory says there was no thing at T=0
In the same post you say that cavediver says that the 'no thing' was the size of a pinprick at T=0. Such a statement is not even self consistent.
I have been very busy lately working on getting my sheepskin. For what, I have no idea I just decided I wanted it before my 80th birthday. lol I still got 4 years to get there, all I like is my thesis.
That's fantastic ICANT! I love to hear stories like yours!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ICANT, posted 10-27-2015 8:14 PM ICANT has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 260 of 511 (772215)
11-10-2015 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by kbertsche
11-09-2015 10:27 PM


For the universe to begin to exist, there must be a cause of some sort which logically pre-existed the universe. The two leading options for a pre-existent cause are 1) God, and 2) natural law. But if natural law is only DEscriptive and not PREscriptive, option 2 is ruled out as a cause.
Well, no at least to the latter idea. Descriptive simply means that what we know of how things operate is a description and not a commandment. That does not mean that absent our description things would operate differently. I'm not convinced that you are doing anything except playing with words.
Beyond all that, you are making the same assertion that was a point of dispute in at least one past discussion; i.e. that all things require a logical cause. You have not shown that to be the case and there is reason to believe that such is not the case.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by kbertsche, posted 11-09-2015 10:27 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 511 (772246)
11-10-2015 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Admin
11-10-2015 11:52 AM


Re: Moderator Provided Info
So when Hawking writes, "Because there is a law such as gravity...", he really *is* saying that gravity is responsible for creating the universe. As he says later on:
I don't read the statements as necessarily saying gravity created the universe. I read them as saying that gravity was required for creating the universe. Sorta like saying clay is required for creating a sculpture.
As I understand what has been discussed here, gravity plays the role of providing negative energy so that the sum total of the energy of the universe might be zero. It could still be the case that the cause of the quantum fluctuation that created the universe has a natural cause separate completely separate and unrelated to gravity.
Short summary: gravity is an enabler but the cause might be nothing, or some other natural phenomena, or even possibly God did it without having to violate conservation of energy.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Admin, posted 11-10-2015 11:52 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by kbertsche, posted 11-11-2015 7:45 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 301 of 511 (772296)
11-11-2015 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by kbertsche
11-11-2015 7:45 AM


Re: Moderator Provided Info
I think Hawking's wording is pretty clear that gravity is the cause.
I disagree and I've explained why I think what I think. Does it add anything if I say I think it is pretty clear that you are wrong about Hawking's wording? I don't think so.
As I understand it, there were no forces or force carriers (including gravity and gravitons) until a split second after the Big Bang. So how could gravity be an "enabler" of the Big Bang?
I can imagine an answer for your question.
Hypothetically, let's assume those force carriers were created a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang just as you suggest I must assume. Absent gravity, then whatever energy popped out of nowhere in a quantum fluctuation must simply disappear else conservation of matter is violated. On the other hand, if gravity/gravitons are created within a relevant small time period, then the establishment of negative energy allows the positive energy created by the fluctuation to persist.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by kbertsche, posted 11-11-2015 7:45 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 314 of 511 (772375)
11-13-2015 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by ICANT
11-12-2015 7:11 PM


Re: Your problem
T=040
Surely this is a typo and you really mean T < 10-40s or something similar?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by ICANT, posted 11-12-2015 7:11 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 315 of 511 (772376)
11-13-2015 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by ICANT
11-12-2015 7:11 PM


Re: Your problem
How does math show anything prior to T=1040?
Assuming the correction I suggested is made, we can make the distinction between physics which is what we can demonstrate to be true empirically, and those predictions made using math which describes what we know, but may also allow extrapolations from what we know.
Here the idea is that math that fits what we know also allows things that are not yet verified, and may never be verified as correct or demonstrated to be incorrect.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by ICANT, posted 11-12-2015 7:11 PM ICANT has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 327 of 511 (772475)
11-14-2015 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Greatest I am
11-13-2015 9:34 AM


Do you have a free will if you have to follow commands on pain of death?
Quite obviously this depends on exactly what the command is. Does a law requiring your death in a capital murder case mean take away human free will? And are there not people who still commit capital offenses despite the law?
Perhaps you should rethink your entire line argument. The fact that your actions have consequences does not remove your ability or your free will. In fact such a state is the reality we all live in. Removing human free will would mean making them mentally or physically incapable of performing an act contrary to some rule or guideline.
There is also the point that Adam and Eve apparently survived their sin by hundreds of years.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Greatest I am, posted 11-13-2015 9:34 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Greatest I am, posted 11-14-2015 3:10 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 329 of 511 (772497)
11-14-2015 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Greatest I am
11-14-2015 3:10 PM


The fact that you did not answer my simple question is all I need to know.
Actually I did answer your question. Yes you can have free will in the face of possible punishment. Your boss orders you around all of the time and you can disobey him under threat of being fired. You still have free will.
If you live in the right state and commit a capital offense you may be killed by the state if caught. You still have free will, and some people even exercise that will to commit hanging offenses.
So I answered your questions. You did not answer mine, now did you?
You know that commands and an arbitrary death sentence does effect free will.
Commands do affect free will, yes. The question is whether command and death threats remove free will, which is your claim. The answer has been shown to be that free will can exist in those situations.
And your question about free will concerns a situation in which the command in question was flaunted. If the situation is as described then apparently Adam and Eve did have some free will.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Greatest I am, posted 11-14-2015 3:10 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Greatest I am, posted 11-15-2015 5:09 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 332 of 511 (772557)
11-15-2015 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Greatest I am
11-15-2015 5:09 PM


Going against God's will in Gen 3 cause A & E all kinds of grief.
Yes. And yet even after having been informed of possible bad consequences, they disobeyed anyway. There is no way to read the result as suggesting Adam and Eve did not have free will. What is your point?
Why does God show a double standard of anger at them not screwing for him while getting really angry when they decided to go to school and learn things so as not to be as dumb as the bricks and blind as they were before eating of the tree of knowledge?
As best as I can make sense out of your question, it does not seem to fit the story as described in the Bible. God did not get angry at Adam and Eve for not screwing for him. If you believe God did that, please point to a citation.
God was angry at Adam and Eve for their disobedience. I don't see a double standard of any kind.
Perhaps you should be more clear about your position.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Greatest I am, posted 11-15-2015 5:09 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Greatest I am, posted 11-16-2015 4:27 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 338 of 511 (772610)
11-16-2015 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Greatest I am
11-16-2015 4:27 PM


Perhaps because Adam and Eve did not disobey any such commandment. If Adam and Eve had no children at the time, who says that was from lack of trying. Just how much time passed between the direction to be fruitful and multiply and the serpent incident?
Is that not a double standard?
You have not shown that to be the case. You are making up stuff that simply is not detailed in the story. There is no evidence whatsoever that Adam and Eve disobeyed God with respect to being fruitful. And of course at some point, Adam and Eve did have children. Is there some reason (other than trying to catch God in an inconsistency) to assume that God was not satisfied with the timing?
Let's assume for the sake of argument that God did not punish Adam and Eve for every transgression of his commands with a punishment akin to the loss of eternal life, pain in childbirth, subservience to Adam, etc. Explain why such a scheme is unfair or some kind of double standard. Is it a double standard that we don't lock up our kids when they steal cookies, but we do lock up car jackers?
Explain.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Greatest I am, posted 11-16-2015 4:27 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Greatest I am, posted 11-16-2015 7:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 340 of 511 (772613)
11-16-2015 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by Greatest I am
11-16-2015 7:06 PM


Can people reproduce when they are to dimwitted to know they are naked?
No they cannot.
Why you need documentation to make that leap of logic is beyond me.
It looks as if you've stopped pretending to be polite. I am asking for a Bible citation because it is clear that you are making stuff up.
We've debated this point before. The text does not say that Adam and Eve did not yet know how to make babies. In a previous thread you made this assumption and then concluded that God told them to make babies at a time when they did not know how. The Bible does not say that Adam and Eve were ignorant about sex. That is your personal interpretation.
But let's accept your position on that point. If we do then we can see that your original question is pointless. If Adam and Eve had not yet learned to make children then we don't need an explanation for why God was not mad about the delay in being fruitful. An easy explanation is that God was waiting for Adam and Eve to figure things out.
Please take your time before posting.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Greatest I am, posted 11-16-2015 7:06 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Coyote, posted 11-16-2015 8:35 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 342 by Greatest I am, posted 11-16-2015 8:52 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 345 of 511 (772619)
11-16-2015 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Greatest I am
11-16-2015 8:52 PM


So you think it ok and normal for God to command something that cannot be done. Ok.
Wrong. It is your position and yours alone that God commanded something that could not be done. I don't believe the Bible says any such thing. Further, when I ask you do demonstrate that it does, you find excuses not to point to a single Bible verse.
All of that is besides the point. The problem is that your belief that Adam and Eve were incapable of having children makes your question about why God did not punish them for not having children meaningless if not outright stupid.
You ignore the consequence question showing how dishonest a poster you are.
Do I owe you answers to every one of your questions? Do you answer all of my questions? No. Am I calling you names because of that? No.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Greatest I am, posted 11-16-2015 8:52 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 355 of 511 (772659)
11-17-2015 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by ICANT
11-17-2015 2:30 AM


He is the energy that holds the atoms together that compose your body.
I think that energy is what a lot of folks call dark energy and dark matter.
The energy that holds atoms together is neither dark energy nor dark matter. I don't think that matters for your argument.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2015 2:30 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2015 3:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 362 of 511 (772703)
11-17-2015 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by ICANT
11-17-2015 3:06 PM


The dark energy and dark matter was in reference to what hold's the universe together as it is made up of atoms also.
Dark energy is causing the universe to expand at ever increasing rates. Surely you are not trying to tell me that dark energy is holding the universe together.
What we call dark matter has a negligible effect on atoms. It does not help keep atoms together.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2015 3:06 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by ICANT, posted 11-19-2015 10:39 AM NoNukes has replied

  
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