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Author Topic:   Is it moral for God to punish us?
Greatest I am
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Posts: 1382
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Message 1 of 145 (770888)
10-13-2015 7:56 PM


Is it moral for God to punish us?

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow Gods plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

For example.
God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or Gods plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing Gods plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

Do you agree?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
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 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-22-2015 9:21 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
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Message 2 of 145 (770890)
10-15-2015 9:43 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Is it moral for God to punish us? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Tanypteryx
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Posts: 1470
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
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Message 3 of 145 (770903)
10-15-2015 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
10-13-2015 7:56 PM


Is it moral for God to punish us?
Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

So, you really want to have a serious discussion about the morals of an imaginary being?

You must really be bored.

A much more important topic would be, "Is Santa Claus really a jolly guy, or is he hiding a deep sadness?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


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ringo
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Message 4 of 145 (770906)
10-15-2015 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tanypteryx
10-15-2015 12:23 PM


Tanypteryx writes:

Is Santa Claus really a jolly guy, or is he hiding a deep sadness?


He's clearly compensating for a childhood deprived of toys.
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Stile
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Message 5 of 145 (770911)
10-15-2015 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
10-15-2015 12:46 PM


ringo writes:

He's clearly compensating for a childhood deprived of toys.

Nope, he's fat. That's proof he wasn't deprived of anything as a child.
Therefore... just a jolly fellow. They nailed this one. Santa Claus is just a happy guy.


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Stile
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Message 6 of 145 (770912)
10-15-2015 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
10-13-2015 7:56 PM


Greatest I am writes:

Is it moral for God to punish us?

Short answer: No.
Long answer: Depends... according to who's morals?

Do you agree?

I agree with the point you're trying to make, yes. But I wouldn't mince the words quite in the same way.
But, well, I don't think there are those who actually disagree with this... there will just be those who disagree that this point is what actually comes from their religion. Which sort of makes the question itself a bit moot.


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Greatest I am
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Posts: 1382
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Message 7 of 145 (770917)
10-15-2015 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stile
10-15-2015 2:58 PM


Stile

According to your morals and mine so far.

If anyone disagrees, we can then have a look at their morals and compare and debate as to who has the best set of morals.

If no theist engages, I will assume that my argument is so tight that they concede and cannot argue for their God.

Regards
DL


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ProtoTypical
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Message 8 of 145 (770924)
10-15-2015 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
10-13-2015 7:56 PM


Is it moral for God to punish us?

Yes.

If you can make sentient beings out of the dirt then you can do whatever you want with them.


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Phat
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Joined: 12-30-2003
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Message 9 of 145 (770948)
10-16-2015 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Greatest I am
10-15-2015 5:39 PM


Morals, Anyone?
If anyone disagrees, we can then have a look at their morals and compare and debate as to who has the best set of morals.
I'll go with what I have been taught.
Morality Statement from Christian website

quote:
Definition
Morality for a Christian is the application of Gods laws regarding a persons private and public behavior. In his or her seeking to live a moral life, a Christian tries to obey the rules for his or her personal behavior that have been decreed by God and recorded in the Bible. Throughout centuries of history these rules have been proclaimed by Gods prophets, like Moses and Isaiah and Jeremiah, taught by Jesus, interpreted by the apostles, like Peter and Paul, established by Emperor Constantine, and proclaimed by various popes, theologians, and preachers, like St. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jacob Arminus, Jonathan Edwards, John Wesley, Dwight L. Moody, Billy Graham, and other contemporary preacher/teachers within the Jewish-Christian traditional understandings of what is right and what is wrong.

Problems with moral behavior
In spite of all of the clearly written and proclaimed statements of moral law, individual Jews and Christians and non-members of these biblically based religious communities have found it to be impossible to live in accord with these laws. No one has the ability to be as good as he or she knows that he or she should be. Although most people have a basic understanding of what is right and what is wrong, most of us cannot be consistently right in how we obey Gods laws as well as those that have been established by various governmental authorities.

The psalmist of ancient Israel said that all have turned aside (from seeking to do good and from seeking God) they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one (Psalms 14:3). Paul quotes this in his teaching letter to the Romans in Chapter 3, verses 10-11, and he adds this comment to include believers all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All human beings live and have lived on a battlefield between the righteous God and his rebellious angel Lucifer or Satan, and this battle between Gods righteous will and Satans rebellious desires goes on day after day in everyones life.


Lets go with the basic rule of loving ones neighbor. Assuming that all have sinned, there is no excuse to point fingers at the sins of others. The only exception would be if one worked for the state and was enforcing legal morality.

In which case the laws of the state would supersede the laws of the bible, no matter how interpreted.

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

As far as God punishing us, I believe that God, if God exists is a perfect judge of my intentions versus my actions and have no problem surrendering to His verdict.(Jesus being my defense attorney, of course!)

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

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 Message 7 by Greatest I am, posted 10-15-2015 5:39 PM Greatest I am has responded

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ringo
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Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 10 of 145 (770953)
10-16-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
10-15-2015 2:55 PM


Stile writes:

Nope, he's fat. That's proof he wasn't deprived of anything as a child.


He tried to substitute food for love.
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Greatest I am
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Posts: 1382
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 11 of 145 (770957)
10-16-2015 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ProtoTypical
10-15-2015 9:11 PM


ProtoTypical

If you create a being and his nature, what possible reason could you put to punishing a person for following the nature you put into him or her in the first place?

That would be like saying that you yourself as the creator did not like what you created.

It is analogous to a painter slashing his own painting.

We would think a painter quite insane if he did such a thing so why do you not think God insane for punishing us for being exactly what he created us to be?

Regards
DL


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 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2015 3:20 PM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 16 by ProtoTypical, posted 10-16-2015 6:27 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
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Posts: 1382
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 12 of 145 (770958)
10-16-2015 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
10-16-2015 10:47 AM


Re: Morals, Anyone?
Phat

"Gods laws"

These would include stoning unruly children and fornicators.

Are you in favor of such laws?

"I believe that God, if God exists is a perfect judge"

God's first ruling as a judge is shown here.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This is God as a judge demanding and later, it is thought, accepting a human sacrifice and the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty as somehow being good justice. That sacrifice/bribe made God reverse the usual good morals of punishing the guilty and not the innocent.

How can God be a perfect judge when he demands and accepts bribes or sacrifices to alter his verdicts?

Regards
DL


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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1470
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 13 of 145 (770962)
10-16-2015 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Greatest I am
10-16-2015 12:47 PM


We would think a painter quite insane if he did such a thing so why do you not think God insane for punishing us for being exactly what he created us to be?

Why do you continue to go on and on about whether an imaginary entity is insane, or bad, or immoral? What possible difference does it make? It is exactly like wondering if Lex Luthar is insane; who cares, he is imaginary.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 10-16-2015 12:47 PM Greatest I am has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 14 of 145 (770965)
10-16-2015 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Greatest I am
10-16-2015 12:47 PM


Greatest I am writes:

It is analogous to a painter slashing his own painting.


It's pretty common for painters to paint over a painting they don't like and re-use the canvas. That's a pretty thorough destruction of their creation even if it isn't overtly violent.
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NoNukes
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Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
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(1)
Message 15 of 145 (770977)
10-16-2015 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Greatest I am
10-16-2015 12:47 PM


If you create a being and his nature, what possible reason could you put to punishing a person for following the nature you put into him or her in the first place?

Isn't this really a question about free will, determinism etc? Your post assumes a particular answer, namely that God specifies the nature of his creation at birth. Actually there are other possibilities.

1) God shapes behavior after creation, sometimes during punishment
2) Man has free will, and gets punished for making bad choices


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


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