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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 12 of 508 (772434)
11-14-2015 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
11-14-2015 4:36 AM


Are you suggesting that Christian nations are safe from Islamic terrorism?
And, with regard to the judgement coming, isn't this judgement something you would welcome? If not soon when would you prefer it to happen given that you presumably consider it an inevibility?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 4:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 7:29 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 15 of 508 (772439)
11-14-2015 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
11-14-2015 7:29 AM


The period you hark back to of true Christian nations seems to be the same period where these true Christian nations were busy fighting and slaughtering each other.
Faith writes:
judgement kills people and makes life miserable
So is this judgement avoidable or will it inevitably occur sooner or later?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 7:29 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 8:43 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 16 of 508 (772440)
11-14-2015 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
11-14-2015 7:51 AM


Re: A Few Details
I don't think we can make it stop in the near or medium term. It could take generations. What actions could we possibly take that will stop people wanting to blow themselves up and take as many others with them as possible in the name of God?
We can't disprove their religious beliefs. Appealing to their humanity doesn't seem like a particularly worthwhile endeavour.
Cut the money supply. But how?
Cut the propaganda chain. But how?
Solve the Middle East territory dispute pertaining to Israel and Palestine. But how?
End the indoctrination and brainwashing of children. But how?
End the notion that all of this is Gods will. But how?
It's religious fanaticism mixed up with geo-politics, ancient conflicts mixed up with modern wars and a military conflict with no recognisable enemy territory.
If it goes on long enough the fanaticism that the desired outcome (whatever that may be - some sort of global Islamic theocracy?) is just around the corner will lose credibility even amongst the devoted and then it might start to die out naturally.
I not optimistic about this.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 11-14-2015 7:51 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 11-14-2015 8:49 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 11-14-2015 9:21 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 24 by Diomedes, posted 11-14-2015 10:51 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 110 by dronestar, posted 11-16-2015 3:28 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(4)
Message 29 of 508 (772457)
11-14-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dr Adequate
11-14-2015 10:45 AM


Re: A Few Details
ISIS do think that. But I am with Percy in the sense that such an extreme ideology wouldn't appeal to so many if it weren't for the fact so many effectively have lost hope to the point that platitudes like "violence solves nothing" are laughable. When it comes down to it what else is there but to rise up without regard for your life if you don't consider the future worth living? If I were a young Palestinian man I think I might very well resort to violence as what else could I do to change the situation?
Throw in some religious fanaticism and ancient grudges on top of that "fuck it there is nothing to live for despair" and you've got suicide bombers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-14-2015 10:45 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Jon, posted 11-17-2015 5:47 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 114 of 508 (772608)
11-16-2015 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by dronestar
11-16-2015 3:28 PM


Re: Hardly a fine detail
Well..Yes. But if we broke all ties with Saudi Arabia, pulled all Western troops out of Middle Eastern nations, ended all drone and plane attacks and evacuated Israel of Jews so that it could be completely reclaimed by Palestinians - I still don't think that would stop ISIS pursuing their aims as they would consider all of that little more than a decent start to the new world order they desire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by dronestar, posted 11-16-2015 3:28 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 11:12 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 127 of 508 (772631)
11-17-2015 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
11-17-2015 12:14 AM


But what drives people to adopt a particular ideology?
Why are young men and women educated in societies that find these actions abhorrent and raised by peaceful parents, taking themselves to the Middle East to train as Jihadists and suicide bombers?
You can say the ideology in question is to blame but how do we explain what drives people towards the adoption of that ideology?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 11-17-2015 12:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Faith, posted 11-17-2015 7:44 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(4)
Message 200 of 508 (772777)
11-18-2015 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by dronestar
11-17-2015 11:12 AM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
You seem to be taking a common but pointless approach to problem solving. You seem to be suggesting that the answer to a problem situation is to not be in the situation we find ourselves in.
If your argument is that recent Western interventions are a significant contributory factor to the current situation with ISIS then I won't disagree with you. Blair, Bush, Clinton etc. selling arms and generally sucking up to Saudi Arabia - That seems to be your particular bugbear and that too I can join you in condemning.
However having created the monster that is ISIS - Now what? You can post all the historical pictures you like of Western leaders looking dodgy in the company of Saudi royals. You can write all the patronising, condescending little bed time story posts you like as well. But none of that provides any answer as to how to tackle the existence of ISIS now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by dronestar, posted 11-17-2015 11:12 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-18-2015 3:24 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 204 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 3:51 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 203 of 508 (772780)
11-18-2015 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Jon
11-17-2015 5:47 AM


Re: A Few Details
Some of those who committing these acts are well educated and from relatively wealthy backgrounds in Western countries.
Some are from marginalised and relatively poor communities in wealthy Western countries.
Some are from war torn shit holes where there is little hope of any half decent future.
The high profile cases involving Western targets get the media attention and they do seem to be home grown to some extent. But to say "most" Muslim suicide bombers and Jihadists are wealthy westerners seems to me to be ignoring the fact that such incidents are relatively common in the Middle East. Beirut had a major incident the day before Paris. Baghdad around the same time.
Where are you getting your info from that "most" of those undertaking these acts are wealthy Westerners? And is it possible that those that do meet the your description consider themselves to be fighting on behalf of their downtrodden 'brothers'?
We can condemn the actions whilst recognising that the Palestine situation is a contributory factor here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Jon, posted 11-17-2015 5:47 AM Jon has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 209 of 508 (772792)
11-18-2015 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by dronestar
11-18-2015 3:51 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
I refer you back to Message 114
That starts with "If we broke all ties with Saudi Arabia......"
I call this issue your "bugbear" not to disagree with the general sentiments or even to trivialise that issue but because you seem to keep putting it forward as the sole solution to problems and issues that it wont now solve. By all means campaign against the ongoing links with Saudi Arabia. But don't expect that alone to solve the ISIS problem.
Frankly you seem a little obsessed by this issue to the exclusion of all other factors and in ways which cause you to rail against those who largely agree that the links in question should be condemned....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by dronestar, posted 11-18-2015 3:51 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by dronestar, posted 11-19-2015 10:48 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 233 of 508 (772877)
11-20-2015 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by dronestar
11-19-2015 10:48 AM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
Whilst I too condemn the hypocritical support our respective governments give to Saudi Arabia I'm afraid that I think your naively simplistic conclusion that ceasing this alone would solve the ISIS problem, is pure fantasy.
You are too obsessed by this single issue to see beyond it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by dronestar, posted 11-19-2015 10:48 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 9:18 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 241 of 508 (772920)
11-20-2015 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by dronestar
11-20-2015 9:18 AM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
If we took all the steps I stated in Message 114 do you think ISIS's desire to do away with Western democracies and replace them with Islamic theocracies would be satiated?
I don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 9:18 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 4:18 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 244 of 508 (772938)
11-20-2015 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by dronestar
11-20-2015 4:18 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
So that's a 'No' then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 4:18 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 4:40 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 246 of 508 (772940)
11-20-2015 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by dronestar
11-20-2015 4:40 PM


Re: Once upon a time . . .
Why you would think I have positive feelings towards Tony Blair is a mystery.
And he is far more likely to be seen over on your side of the pond than here these days anyway. You guys over there seem far fonder of him than we are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 4:40 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by dronestar, posted 11-20-2015 4:53 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 253 by Percy, posted 11-21-2015 7:53 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(3)
Message 327 of 508 (773303)
11-28-2015 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Percy
11-28-2015 3:03 PM


In objective terms Mod is correct. The number of lives taken by ISIS pales in comparison to a whole host of other risks. 30 British people have lost their lives to ISIS. 120 odd French people. How many Americans has ISIS killed? In cost benefit terms the attention and focus of resources on 'security' measures in response to that particular phenomenon is a paranoid and over the top reaction to a statistically rather insignificant threat. Looked at in cold hard statistical terms and one can't help but conclude that governments are using this as a bit of an excuse to impose freedom curbing controls that have little real justification because the public feel scared and are thus open to such changes in a way they might otherwise not be. Mod's main point seems to be that ultimately ISIS are not an existential threat to Western democracies and all the hyperbole and fearmongering suggesting otherwise is basically bullshit that should be ignored rather than any reason to change our way of life.
Where I think Mod isn't helping his case is with the language used. Unusually for him he seems to be ignoring the very human psychological and emotional responses that are a part of the situation here. A bunch of zealots killing innocent people in Western capitals isn't about just numbers. There are emotional and psychological factors (the same ones being utilised to fearmonger so effectively) that are very real. Describing it as 'not a problem' etc. invites derision from those who, in my opinion, he should be seeking to persuade.
I would describe such actions as very much "a problem" in the sense that any tragic loss of life is "a problem". But at the same time I would ask how we objectively compare different "problems" and the basis upon which we objectively choose to focus resource and attention on which problems.
I think that would be a less direct but more effective method of making the point I think Mod is making.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Percy, posted 11-28-2015 3:03 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 385 of 508 (773554)
12-03-2015 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by Dogmafood
12-03-2015 6:27 PM


The fact that the propaganda in question, highlighting the loss of Moslem lives, seems to be so successful as a recruiting tool is the evidence in question.
Why would people unconcerned by loss of life be so motivated by people losing their lives?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Dogmafood, posted 12-03-2015 6:27 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Dogmafood, posted 12-04-2015 8:53 AM Straggler has replied

  
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