Another one that hurts

If there's an entire island of sociopathic people off the north coast of France who support war criminals, and if there are racist members of this bulletin board, could we maybe take those discussions and accusations elsewhere? Like to another board entirely?In other words, could we maybe raise the tenor of discussion?--Percy

This is a mistake, Tangle. But, OK. The honest answer is that the death of my child would matter more.Earlier you said,

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Our enemies have a death cult, they hold life cheap.

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And I said

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Two dimensional baddies are what ISIS do.

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We can do better.

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Do you agree ?I also wondered, 'If the fanatics hold life cheap, why does so much of their propaganda focus on making people sad and angry about innocent deaths from American bombs etc?'I summed up my feelings of the situation with regards to moderation as, '... we won't see the region adopting moderate Islam until stability. We can't make moderate Islam occur in order to achieve stability, I believe. '

Cultures that murder children/civilians do not value lives.

It's not a mistake, it's an honest answer. We have different feelings for those who are closer to us than those that are more distant - physically and emotionally. As I said, it's not that we don't care about others, it's just that we care less. When we become aware of them - like we did about the baby washed up on the beach - we care more. Caring for people we don't know seems to be rather abstract and impermanent. When there's an atrocity committed by people of the same race and religion as the baby, we suddenly forget our caring. It's not nice, but it's what we are. Absolutely. Because it's good propaganda - but then you knew that. I'm afraid what happens in the region is beyond my powers of comprehension. As a general statement, it seems true that security must come before everything else. How that is achieved I really don't know.

Okay, sure. We should probably just leave it at that.--Percy

The mistake, I referred to, was yours. Yes, that's not nice, that was what I was saying.However you feel about the situation I can assure you that I feel as bad for the victims of the Parisian massacre as I do for the victims of the Mountain Meadows massacre and likewise the Houla massacre. Yes, I knew that. And you knew I knew that. And it also doesn't answer the question I asked.I did not ask 'Why do ISIS use Muslim deaths for propaganda?'. If they don't value life, why is it that the propaganda that plays on the value of lives is successful?Part of your answer requires you take into account the fact that they don't value life.

Modulous, part of my problem with discussing this stuff with you is that you have an enormously patronising and supercilious attitude, which you combine with a nasty accusative, academic and combative style.As I'm often accused of having some of those attributes, we're not going to make any progress going head-to-head over imaginary differences. For what it's worth, I doubt there's any real material difference between our positions.I do however, have a real life and probably won't be able to reply here for at least 48 hours. You don't need to read anything further into that.

Nonsense. Most of us are willing to risk our lives for something - e.g. our children. Suicide bombers are just more sincere in their commitment.We call people heroes when they die for our cause. Why call them something else when they die for their own?

we call the guy that wins at Monopoly the hero. We call the guy who knocks over the board...when he is losing...a bad sport.

This banter reminds me a lot of the Sam Harris/Ben Affleck spat on Bill Maher, where essentially voices from the Left are arguing over who is more morally repugnant, the Salafist extremists or the Western forces willing to incur collateral damages in order to strike the Salafists.You're Ben Affleck in this instance

Ted Bundy and Jeff Dahmer where also sincere in their commitments. I'm sure somewhere out there are people who call Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer a hero.

Hey Hyro,Nice to see you posting again. We had some good debates, hope you stay awhile. Percy, the owner of this forum, has requested we specifically not talk about "people off the north coast of France who support war criminals." But it seems we are okay to talk about non-white, non-christian peoples who support war criminals. I guess It's best that we just look at "other" peoples' crimes.I saw the Sam Harris/Ben Affleck spat on Bill Maher. Interesting. Yeah, usually I agree with Maher's sentiments, but in this case I might be slightly more like Ben Affleck. However, I thought they both missed the boat by not saying the west pushed the Iraqis into survival mode through ISIS by invading Iraq. Again, it's not the religion that has created ISIS, it is being bombed back into the stone age that has precipitated ISIS. American christians would do they same thing if they were in the same predicament.(Did you catch Maher on Colbert last week? Interesting, but Colbert switched gears before it became really interesting.)I thought I just read that France was going to sell the Saudis fighter jets. But I cannot find the web link again. Maybe I am mistaken.Nonetheless, can someone explain to me how the populations allow their governments to continue support for the Saudis, I am so frustrated . . .

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Arms Sales to Saudi Arabia Boost French Economy, but at What Cost?

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"France’s increasingly close rapport with Saudi Arabia under President Francois Hollande has incensed some of his critics, who label him a hypocrite for touting a human rights agenda while maintaining cozy ties with the oil-rich Gulf nation notorious for public executions and beatings."

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Arms Sales to Saudi Arabia Boost French Economy, but at What Cost? - World Politics Review

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France, Saudi Arabia deepen alliance with 10B euros in deals
http://news.yahoo.com/...eals-worth-10b-euros-123148024.html

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France Sells Air Defense Missiles To Saudi Arabia for $4.5 Billion
France Sells Air Defense Missiles To Saudi Arabia for $4.5 Billion - The New York Times

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Et tu Canada?

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Why selling weapons to Saudi Arabia is a bad, bad idea

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"This much you know: The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has sealed a multi-billion-dollar deal to buy light armoured vehicles from Canada."

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"Here’s what you might not know: The Saudi regime is buying these vehicles not to defend the nation from foreign threats, but to protect the regime from Saudis from internal dissent and demands for reform."

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http://ipolitics.ca/...ons-to-saudi-arabia-is-a-bad-bad-idea

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But they're not losing.

They weren't willingly risking their lives; they were just indulging in risky behaviour, like drug addiction. It's not analogous to two sides in a war.

Their dream of an ideal Muslim Utopia is losing. The culture that they live in is dominated by wealthy sell-outs to the West...while the people-at-large are unable to earn decent livings en mass.Christian Fundamentalists quite possibly would also become violent were their American Dream Utopia destroyed. If we can't raise our children in a world of opportunity, Nobody Else will succeed either!