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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7511
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 421 of 508 (773604)
12-04-2015 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 420 by Tangle
12-04-2015 10:59 AM


Do you suppose that once they are persuaded by the jihadists, they lose their emotions?

Yes.

Very well.

I thought we agreed that ISIS is not staffed solely by psychopaths

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/), also known asthough sometimes distinguished fromsociopathy (/soʊsiˈɒpəθi/), is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior.

We did. I was pointing out that it was therefore ironic that you that ended up arguing that ISIS is staffed by psychopaths.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 10:59 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 11:10 AM Modulous has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5161
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 422 of 508 (773605)
12-04-2015 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by Modulous
12-04-2015 11:05 AM


Modulous writes:

We did. I was pointing out that it was therefore ironic that you that ended up arguing that ISIS is staffed by psychopaths.

I have never argued that ISIS was staffed solely by psychopaths.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 11:05 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 11:16 AM Tangle has responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7511
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 423 of 508 (773606)
12-04-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Tangle
12-04-2015 11:10 AM


I have never argued that ISIS was staffed solely by psychopaths.

I see.

So you arguing that they don't value human life.
That they have lost their emotions of empathy. They are manipulative and antisocial.
But you are not arguing they are psychopaths.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 11:10 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 12:21 PM Modulous has responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2725
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 424 of 508 (773607)
12-04-2015 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by ringo
12-04-2015 10:53 AM


I didn't say it was laudable. I said it was no different from bombing civilians.

So you are saying a man walking into a public place and detonating a IED , like say the Boston bomber is no different than bombing civillians.

Lets examine intent: Boston bombers intent to kill everyone he can.

Allie bomb intent: To kill the enemy combatants.

Some civilians where inadvertently killed so I guess that means the intent does not matter to you. All that matters is that they are dead. By that logic a Dr. should be put on trail for murder every time one of his patients dies. That makes perfect sense Ringo.

Ringo writes:

Yes, no doubt God is on your side. He was on your side during World War 2. He was on your side during World War 1. He was on your side during the genocide of Native Americans. He's always on your side because you're always right.


Leave God out of it. The salient point I believe is thanks to the people of the Allied forces we do not have the kind of world that would prevent you from taking any political view. Unless you are a fascist you should be able to recognize the world is a better place without totalitarian fascist regimes. The losers of those wars started them.

As far as the American Indian is concerned I'd say show me a country that did not kill, enslave conquer and subjugate and I'll show you a enslaved conquered and subjugated country. Btw feel free to donate your current land and property to what ever local American Indian Tribe of your choice.

Ringo writes:

I'm not legitimizing anybody. I'm demonizing both sides.

As is your right sir.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by ringo, posted 12-04-2015 10:53 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by dronestar, posted 12-04-2015 11:26 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded
 Message 426 by ringo, posted 12-04-2015 11:37 AM 1.61803 has responded

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 425 of 508 (773608)
12-04-2015 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 424 by 1.61803
12-04-2015 11:19 AM



This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2015 11:19 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13881
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 426 of 508 (773609)
12-04-2015 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 424 by 1.61803
12-04-2015 11:19 AM


~1.6 writes:

Some civilians where inadvertently killed so I guess that means the intent does not matter to you.


Correct. Drunk drivers kill people inadvertently. We still throw them in jail.

~1.6 writes:

By that logic a Dr. should be put on trail for murder every time one of his patients dies.


No. A doctor is trying to save his patient; if he fails, he fails. A bomber pilot is trying to kill people. If he kills the "wrong" people, he's no better than a drunk driver, maybe worse.

~1.6 writes:

Unless you are a fascist you should be able to recognize the world is a better place without totalitarian fascist regimes.


Maybe war was the only way to defeat fascism. That doesn't justify the bombing of civilians during that war. As I have said before, it's better to lose a war honourably than to win one dishonourably.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2015 11:19 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by 1.61803, posted 12-04-2015 12:39 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 427 of 508 (773610)
12-04-2015 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by Modulous
12-04-2015 10:51 AM


Since you were attempting to be clear in this quote, I can only blame you for your equivocation within it. I made no such conclusion.

My apology was sincere, but since you seem intent on making something of this, I will re-phrase what I said. "I was referring to your statement 'I don't think they're cartoon evil baddies either and I think treating them as such doesn't seem like the path of least blood to me.' That was the opinion with which I was disagreeing." Does that work for you ?

Which is evidence they are not cartoonish bad guys, but humans with complex motivations, including empathy for the loss of lives.

This is an example of the selectivity, which I think encourages potential recruits to think "it's OK to affiliate myself with ISIS - I'll be one of the noble and good ones, not one of the vile ones." I think it helps to point out that such a disassociation is both morally (and probably practically) impossible.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 10:51 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 11:48 AM vimesey has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7511
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 428 of 508 (773611)
12-04-2015 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by vimesey
12-04-2015 11:38 AM


My apology was sincere, but since you seem intent on making something of this, I will re-phrase what I said. "I was referring to your statement 'I don't think they're cartoon evil baddies either and I think treating them as such doesn't seem like the path of least blood to me.' That was the opinion with which I was disagreeing." Does that work for you ?

So you think we should treating them as if they were cartoonish bad guys? By which I mean, two dimensional. You think we should abandon any attempt to understand these people as complex humans?

This is an example of the selectivity, which I think encourages potential recruits to think "it's OK to affiliate myself with ISIS - I'll be one of the noble and good ones, not one of the vile ones."

So I'm prohibited from presenting evidence for my claim that our opponents have human motivations and are not convenient nonhuman fairytale monsters because acknowledging this I would encourage ISIS recruitment?

That seems like nonsense to me. It certainly won't be useful in combating ISIS to characiture them in our assessments.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 11:38 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by vimesey, posted 12-04-2015 7:17 PM Modulous has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5161
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 429 of 508 (773615)
12-04-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Modulous
12-04-2015 11:16 AM


Moduluous writes:

I see.

Quite obviously you do not.

So you arguing that they don't value human life.

As you know, I am arguing the opposite

That they have lost their emotions of empathy. They are manipulative and antisocial. But you are not arguing they are psychopaths.

We had agreed that it is likely that some are psychopaths. I disagree that ISIS is staffed solely by psychopaths.

You've taken a definition pf psychopathy and are trying to apply it to anybody who behaves in the ways that ISIS are behaving. You have an erroneous idea of what psychopathy is.

Psychopaths have reduced empathic feelings for others. They are a specific group of people with a clinical condition.

You do not have to be a psychopath to brutally murder someone. It is quite possible for people to have demonised others to the extent that they are able to do despicable things to them but still be good husbands and fathers who have feeling for their friends and family. Those operating in the death camps in WW2 were mostly people like that.

You ignored the child murderers in the news today. Do you think that those six children who shot and slit the throat of bound security guards as a reward are clinically psychopathic?

Enough.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 11:16 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 1:51 PM Tangle has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2725
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 430 of 508 (773617)
12-04-2015 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by ringo
12-04-2015 11:37 AM


You said there is no difference between a suicide bomber,, who wants to kill innocent non combatants and a allied bomber who accidentally kills non combatants.

I said intent is the difference.

If you think that a man like the Boston bomber is no different than the man ordered on a mission to bomb enemy combatants then you seem to not know the difference between someone who purposely wants to kill and maim innocents civilians and someone who did it by accident.

You then go on to espouse that the accidental killing is no different or worse than a drunk driver who killed by accident.

Ok, I guess we dont see it the same.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by ringo, posted 12-04-2015 11:37 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 431 of 508 (773619)
12-04-2015 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Tangle
12-04-2015 3:42 AM


Re: holding life cheap
Personally I see no conflict between denouncing people, their actions and their philosophy and NOT dehumanising them. Why do I have to dehumanise those whom I denounce?

I think that as soon as we de-humanise our enemies we fall into the same trap that they, in this specifc case, have fallen into and lose a large part of what I genuinely think makes us morally superior to them.

This need to deny that those we oppose do the things they do for reasons that are all too human I find ill considered.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 3:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 3:07 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7511
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 432 of 508 (773620)
12-04-2015 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by Tangle
12-04-2015 12:21 PM


6,666 posts
Tangle writes:

Our enemies have a death cult, they hold life cheap.

{After posting evidence in favour of it...}

Tangle writes:

How does any of this suggest that they do not hold life cheap?

Tangle writes:

Mod writes:

So you arguing that they don't value human life.

As you know, I am arguing the opposite

You are arguing that they do value human life?

You've taken a definition pf psychopathy and are trying to apply it to anybody who behaves in the ways that ISIS are behaving.

I've taken your characterisation the ISIS membership and shown how it matches up with psychopathy. Thus showing that despite your earlier protestations the contrary, you have now made an argument that amounts to the very thing you made such a fuss about before.

It is quite possible for people to have demonised others to the extent that they are able to do despicable things to them but still be good husbands and fathers who have feeling for their friends and family.

Exactly the point I was making.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 12:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2015 3:10 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 433 of 508 (773621)
12-04-2015 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by ProtoTypical
12-04-2015 8:53 AM


Do you think every member of ISIS is psychopathic?

What percentage of ISIS members are psychopathic?

What drives those members who are not psychopaths to the actions that they undertake?

If you were a Muslim young man in Raqqa - What do you think your position would be on the relative merits of Western bombing of Syria, ISIS, Assad etc?

If you were a Muslim young man in Raqqa - What do you think your take would be on the recent attacks in Paris?

I ask a genuine question to guage the level of empathy we are capable of achieving here......


This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-04-2015 8:53 AM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-04-2015 7:39 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5161
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 434 of 508 (773622)
12-04-2015 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by Straggler
12-04-2015 1:47 PM


Re: holding life cheap
Straggler writes:

Personally I see no conflict between denouncing people, their actions and their philosophy and NOT dehumanising them. Why do I have to dehumanise those whom I denounce?

I agree.

I think that as soon as we de-humanise our enemies we fall into the same trap that they, in this specifc case, have fallen into and lose a large part of what I genuinely think makes us morally superior to them.

Yup.

This need to deny that those we oppose do the things they do for reasons that are all too human I find ill considered.

Well these are pretty high principles that I can't/don't disagree with. But then I'm sat on my couch drinking a glass of wine and watching a movie with my wife. I can afford these ideals - but we're not dealing with people with our values, sadly.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Straggler, posted 12-04-2015 1:47 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5161
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 435 of 508 (773623)
12-04-2015 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by Modulous
12-04-2015 1:51 PM


Re: 6,666 posts
Terrific.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Modulous, posted 12-04-2015 1:51 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
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