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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 451 of 508 (773680)
12-07-2015 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 450 by vimesey
12-07-2015 6:41 AM


"You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
It was very good to hear.

If moderate Muslims take this on board and keep saying it, at least it'll become obvious that the murdering toerags are a marginalised minority and not representative of the beliefs of the majority of Muslims.

Sadly, I suspect it'll have as much effect as the 'no true Scotsman' argument has on Faith.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by vimesey, posted 12-07-2015 6:41 AM vimesey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2015 11:30 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 453 by ringo, posted 12-07-2015 11:46 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 462 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 11:09 AM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9912
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 452 of 508 (773682)
12-07-2015 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Tangle
12-07-2015 7:49 AM


Re: "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
If moderate Muslims take this on board and keep saying it, at least it'll become obvious that the murdering toerags are a marginalised minority

I wish that were true, but it simply is not the case that what any Muslim condemnation matters to the rest of us. Muslims decry and publicly repudiate terrorism and terrorist actions every time they occur, and people still continue to ask each and every time 'Why don't Muslims condemn terrorist acts' exactly as though nothing had ever been said.

Sadly, I suspect it'll have as much effect as the 'no true Scotsman' argument has on Faith.

Or any other argument. But yeah, that calculation is about right.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2015 7:49 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 453 of 508 (773684)
12-07-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Tangle
12-07-2015 7:49 AM


Re: "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
Tangle writes:

If moderate Muslims take this on board and keep saying it, at least it'll become obvious that the murdering toerags are a marginalised minority and not representative of the beliefs of the majority of Muslims.


I think it's more important that non-Muslims take it on board.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2015 7:49 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2015 12:10 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 454 of 508 (773686)
12-07-2015 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by ringo
12-07-2015 11:46 AM


Re: "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
ringo writes:

I think it's more important that non-Muslims take it on board.

I suspect if it happens at all, it will only be if there's persistent and strenuous condemnation by the Muslim communities first.

Even so, I think NoNukes is correct.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by ringo, posted 12-07-2015 11:46 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1362
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 455 of 508 (773692)
12-07-2015 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by ProtoTypical
12-04-2015 8:11 PM


ProtoTypical writes:

Bombs are a repugnantly blunt instrument but not the same as shooting a female doctor who refuses to wear a niqab.

Do you think this makes a difference to the dead doctor? Or does this reasoning just allow you to sleep at night?

And what about the men who deliver the bombs? The suicide rates of the military are sky high. Is it because the cruelty the West does to the middle east is EQUAL to the cruelty they do to us?

I can't see any difference between the actions of the Paris attackers and the continuing use of drone weapons . . .

quote:
Former Drone Operators Say They Were Horrified By Cruelty of Assassination Program

"We have seen the abuse firsthand, said Bryant, and we are horrified.

https://zcomm.org/...ied-by-cruelty-of-assassination-program


Widespread racism and criminal apathy allows the west to commit atrocities on the people of the middle east. It also prevents us from examining our own actions too closely.

Until we evolve from barbarians, it is simply not possible for the West to help bring about peace.

I had thought the attacks on america on 9/11 would have caused the West to morally ponder the actions the West had perpetrated on others. Through decades of constant support of dictators, terrorists, and destabilizing democratic nations the West should have realized that those actions only spread world-wide conflicts.

But I was wrong. There has been no epiphany. No moral evolution.

Just more shouts for more "repugnantly blunt" bombs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-04-2015 8:11 PM ProtoTypical has not yet responded

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1362
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 456 of 508 (773693)
12-07-2015 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by Percy
12-04-2015 6:09 PM


Re: bump
From what catastrophic support of dictators, terrorists, or destabilized democracies does the West hone their moral highness from?

Be specific.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Percy, posted 12-04-2015 6:09 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by xongsmith, posted 12-08-2015 1:21 AM dronestar has responded
 Message 458 by Percy, posted 12-08-2015 7:51 AM dronestar has not yet responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1800
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 457 of 508 (773709)
12-08-2015 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 456 by dronestar
12-07-2015 4:12 PM


Re: bump
dronestar asks:

From what catastrophic support of dictators, terrorists, or destabilized democracies does the West hone their moral highness from?

Be specific.

Perhaps yours, yourself. After all, droning victims back into the stone age was something you were originally berating.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by dronestar, posted 12-07-2015 4:12 PM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by dronestar, posted 12-08-2015 12:57 PM xongsmith has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15909
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 458 of 508 (773714)
12-08-2015 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 456 by dronestar
12-07-2015 4:12 PM


Re: bump
dronestar writes:

From what catastrophic support of dictators, terrorists, or destabilized democracies does the West hone their moral highness from?

Be specific.

I still think you're missing 1.61803's point (though he hasn't confirmed, so I could have misunderstood him). I thought he was saying that past moral transgressions don't forfeit the right to make moral judgments. For an analogy consider a murderer, who still has the right to judge rape and murder wrong.

I interpreted it as a response to your assertion that moral offenders have no right to make moral judgments.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by dronestar, posted 12-07-2015 4:12 PM dronestar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by 1.61803, posted 12-08-2015 11:05 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1751
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 459 of 508 (773715)
12-08-2015 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by Modulous
12-06-2015 10:08 AM


You are right, to call this propaganda would be a disservice, perhaps you would prefer 'war mongering masterpiece'? Naturally we should continue killing and bombing blindly because of how effective this has proven over the last century.

quote:
... so-called peace propaganda is just as dishonest and intellectually disgusting as war propaganda. Like war propaganda, it concentrates on putting forward a case, obscuring the opponents point of view and avoiding awkward questions. Orwell

Pointing out the atrocities that have really occurred is not exactly war mongering is it? I have specifically spoken against 'blindly bombing' anybody. The problem is not so much with the use of force as it is with the inaccurate use of force.

War mongers and those infected with propaganda often seem to confuse 'know thy enemy' with 'love thy enemy'.

What else do we need to know about them in order to conclude that we should resist them? How does one go about loving their enemies anyway? The best that I can do is to treat them as I would expect to be treated. This includes cutting them all kinds of slack before resorting to the use of violence but it doesn't exclude the use of violence entirely.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Modulous, posted 12-06-2015 10:08 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by Modulous, posted 12-08-2015 10:58 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7429
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 460 of 508 (773727)
12-08-2015 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by ProtoTypical
12-08-2015 9:43 AM


Pointing out the atrocities that have really occurred is not exactly war mongering is it?

Not necessarily, no.

I have specifically spoken against 'blindly bombing' anybody.

Great.

What else do we need to know about them in order to conclude that we should resist them?

It seems to me that one's manner of resistance should be tailored to the enemies one is resisting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-08-2015 9:43 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2711
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 461 of 508 (773728)
12-08-2015 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by Percy
12-08-2015 7:51 AM


Re: bump
Percy writes:

I interpreted it as a response to your assertion that moral offenders have no right to make moral judgments.

Yes and that because of past moral transgressions of a state or country or group they should not automatically be forfeit any consideration or credibility.

Edited by 1.61803, : add "They"


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Percy, posted 12-08-2015 7:51 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by ringo, posted 12-08-2015 11:15 AM 1.61803 has responded
 Message 466 by dronestar, posted 12-08-2015 12:50 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 462 of 508 (773730)
12-08-2015 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Tangle
12-07-2015 7:49 AM


Re: "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
"You ain't no Muslim, bruv." = lying for Muhammad.

If moderate Muslims take this on board and keep saying it, at least it'll become obvious that the murdering toerags are a marginalised minority and not representative of the beliefs of the majority of Muslims.

You can't fix a problem by pretending it doesn't exist.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2015 7:49 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2015 11:20 AM Jon has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 463 of 508 (773731)
12-08-2015 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by 1.61803
12-08-2015 11:05 AM


Re: bump
~1.6 writes:

Yes and that because of past moral transgressions of a state or country or group they should not automatically be forfeit any consideration or credibility.


Does that apply to both sides?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by 1.61803, posted 12-08-2015 11:05 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by 1.61803, posted 12-08-2015 12:25 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 464 of 508 (773733)
12-08-2015 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by Jon
12-08-2015 11:09 AM


Re: "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
Jon writes:

You can't fix a problem by pretending it doesn't exist.

A Muslim telling another that his beliefs are false is not ignoring it - It's a powerful start. It's probably the only way it can change, from within. Christians telling Muslims they're wrong is unlikely to have much of an effect.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 11:09 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 1:41 PM Tangle has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2711
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 465 of 508 (773738)
12-08-2015 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by ringo
12-08-2015 11:15 AM


Re: bump
Yes.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by ringo, posted 12-08-2015 11:15 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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